Heli's and RA-Aus

[HobbyCAD]

Hi There Art,

Yes, please send me the details of the heli guys in ASRA.

Not only are there a stack of Helicycles, there are Mini-500's, Mosquito's, Scorpions, Exec's, a lonely Lonestar, and some A/W-95's. There are even some scratchbuilt one designs. If I can trace all those unfinished, unregistered projects throughout Australia, I'm sure we'll end up with close to 75 machines. There are enough to make up a new set of rules for.

I have been in contact with SAAA, they have been very helpfull. The thing is, currently, as with amateur built aircraft, SAAA is responsable to manage the technical side of amateur built heli's. Their TI's check them out, and sign the paperwork to have the C of A's issued. To register the amateur heli's, you get a VH registration from CASA. Technically, the machines are regulated by SAAA, but the training component is under CASA. I have no problem with the SAAA checking out the amateur built heli's, my problem is that the training is still the full PPL(H). The SAAA does not currently want to touch the current heli licence regulation. They are currently establishing the RPPL, the Recreational Private Pilot License, a step up from an RA-Aus license. Only once that is up and running, might they look at a RPPL(H). With the talk of GA going to self regulation, there are so many possible changes on the way, I don't think they are interested in establishing another heli license.

So now we are looking at ASRA doing the amateur heli's. That means we have to take the current technical inspection responsability away from SAAA, give it to ASRA, and remove the PPL(H) license requirement from amateur built heli's, and create a heli training program under ASRA.

Art, what do you think, will SAAA give up being technically responsable for amateur built heli's. Do you think the current SAAA Heli TI's will be willing to act as ASRA Heli TI's? Do you think the current GA heli instructors will be willing to teach under ASRA?

Regards,

Francois

[MechFx]

Art, what do you think, will SAAA give up being technically responsable for amateur built heli's. Do you think the current SAAA Heli TI's will be willing to act as ASRA Heli TI's? Do you think the current GA heli instructors will be willing to teach under ASRA?

I dont really think the SAAA would want to give up the responsibilities they have already, I'm sure it was a lot of hard work getting where they are at the moment.
What may be a possibility would be for ASRA (the new expanded version) to run the inspections in parallel. similar to the way Trikes are governed by the HGFA and RAAaus.

Most helicopter folk I've met in the past are very enthuisiastic/passionate about choppers so they may be enticed to help in another realm, could be seen as another feather in their cap. Same may go for the GA Heli instructors.
I reckon because its so hard for new commercial pilots/instructors to get work in the industry, what we are discussing may provide an excellent way for new instructors to get hours up.

BUT ..... I think the ideal solution would be to somehow raise instructors and inspectors from within ASRA. look at the last couple of years in Australia and the emergence of more and more Gyro instructors from all over. some of these "newbies" (i say that with the utmost respect) may be inspired by the chance to instruct in quality homebuilt helis as well.

Lot of work ahead which ever way you look at it.

cheers

Art

ps I will PM the contacts later

[Adrian S]

Guys,

As a fixedwing & rotarywing pilot in most camps with reasonable hours 3000+ - ASRA, GFA, RAAus, GA . I also own and operate homebuilts in the gyro, helicopter and fixed wing groups.

Iam all for deregulation and simplifying things but -

Unfortunatly its a big but as the difference between the gyro and helicopter in the training and engineering is significant. The helicopter is more complicated to fly and is not as simple as a gyro from an engineering point of view.

My personal view is that a Helo pilot needs to have at least 500 hours experience to fully understand the helicopter before they should be allowed to teach someone to fly. A reasonable number of these hours should be in low enertia homebuilt helicopters and the difference between the R22/44 and my Lonestar is huge!

The present GA sylabus has already been optimised for the R22 and the R22 is probably the cheapest /most reliable trainer we have seen.

Most Homebuilt helicopters will not survive the stain of training operations for more than one student!

The prices people pay for a R22 training generaly only allows for aircraft replacement and $50 to $80hr for the instructor if you are lucky.

The bottom line is any Helo operation is high maintenance and very expensive if a student stuffs up. ie Gyro blades < $5000 but R22 Blade set > $50000. Insurance you say - A year of Helo insrance will pay for a few gyros!

When I was an ASRA Board member I undertook a simple review of what would be required for ASRA to take on Helo's and the outcome showed that it was going to place an unacceptable strain on ASRA for only a few people who wanted to go the helo route.

Possibly once we have all of the new sport aviation regs in place and have addressed the current safety issues ASRA is facing then there might be time to take helicopters on as well.

Just my 10c worth

Adrian

[HobbyCAD]

Hi there Adrian,

Thanks for your input to this subject. I think we should not be clouding up the matter, by bringing in comparisons or differences between heli, gyro and fixed wing piloting. They are vastly different. The same goes for the different engineering complexity side of it. We are talking learning to fly your own helicopter here, not how it controls, or how complex it is.

I think the 500 hour issue is a bit of an overstatement. If you need 500 hours to understand heli training, CASA is doing something wrong with GA training as well.

Your point of your Lonestar being a totally different machine to fly than the R22 you trained on, it's EXACTLY what bothers me. Current legislation makes us fly the Robbie, and as a low time PPL(H) holder, makes us jump into our low inertia experimental heli. This is where it get's dangereous. We need to be able to train in our own heli's.

I think your statement that experimental heli's won't stand up to training is wrong. If it won't survive training, it won't survive 50 hours once you jump out of the Robbie and into the same experimental heli. I think you should give the more professional builders a bit of credit.

It leads into the point that maybe an individual detailed technical inspection should determine the ability of each heli to be used for training, not a blanket "NOT ALLOWED".

It's exactly your point of it being expensive to do training, that gave rise to RA-Aus and ASRA being created. I ask the same be done for heli enthusiasts, make it more affordable.

I aggree with you, I don't think ASRA is going to touch amateur built heli's. I don't think RA-aus have the desire to do it either. It's going to be a long uphill battle.

[JAL]

I thought the rules allowed you to train in your own homebuilt helicopter if you can find an instructor that is happy to do that. I know you can do that with any other experimental or LSA aircraft. This would be the cheapest training as you carry the direct operating costs. You just cant set yourself up as a business and train others using your homebuilt machine.

But as far as training generally the RA_AUS ticket is much the same as as a restricted GA license which if you check the costs are pretty similar. You still need to add the appropriate endorsements to your sport pilot license (cross country, carry passengers etc) and when added up is not a great deal less than than a full GA PPL which gives you a lot more privileges. Really the main difference is actually the medical standards, with the sport pilot allowing a lot of pilots fly that would not be able with GA license.

My point is that in light sport the savings are in operating your own aircraft where you carry out your own maintenance on a machine you did not need to build yourself. The savings in training aren't that great and accept for the medical standard there maybe even a bit of a false economy doing a sport pilot license instead of a GA license, particularly when many flying schools use exactly the same aircraft and instructors to do both. There is a bit more theory in a GA license but that may be a good thing.

I would imagine that the difference in costs of doing a LSA helicopter license compared to a GA license would not be as great you would imagine. After all a two place machine would require the same amount of maintenance and fuel whether it is licensed as GA or LSA. I would also bet because of the complexity of the machines that CASA would require a LSA machine to be be maintained by a LAME if it was used for the business for training.

I think you frustration is justified when it comes to sport helicopters, I am just suggesting when it comes to training I think that at the end of the day it wont result in the savings you might think.

There is probably a business case for a helicopter kit manufacturer to offer training in your own machine once completed at an agreed rate for the instructor. It is a win - win, the helicopter manufacturer gets to check the quality of the build and that the pilot is trained in their machine well enough to reduce the chances of pilot error crashes that will ultimately damage their brand and the owner doesn't have the out pocket expenses of paying for the operation of another person's machine when they have perfectly good one in the hanger.

[gordon]

Hi for someone who has built a rotorway and got my pplh I think 40 hours is not enough flite time.good point about trying to keep costs down make the cost of buying a kit and getting your licience cheaper you get more people looking at kit helicopters fly safe gordon

[HobbyCAD]

This is the Coroners Report on an accident that seems to be fuelling requests for major change to the current CASA regs.

http://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/...ull_117106.pdf