Gyrodes

Ah Sam you are treading on quicksand there using words like you did in the opening sentence above Des

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What you focus on grows. Des Garvin

Drifter

Except that the closer to the ground you are the more likely you will be influenced by ground reference and thats where pilots have come unstuck.

bones

Orrrrrrr frig here we go again,

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Good gyroplanes are not cheap, cheap gyroplanes are not necessarily good

Brian

Sam is correct, however there can be other factors that come into play.

Down low is an entirely different ball game to 500 or 1000 ft or higher. Even at 20 ft AGL, there are days when you can turn anyway you want without a drama, then there are those odd times when you can feel all is not well when going to do that 'downwind turn'.

I got to say that at low level, downwind is where you strike the most problems, I have very rarely fought to gain altitude into any breeze where as I have some very vivid memory of scooting downwind at ground level with climb power and 40 knots on the ASI knowing that any turn will put me into the ground.

Its an interesting topic and one that causes much huffing and puffing by the text book experts and can cause many days of argument.
It was particularly interesting when Birdy started this same subject on the US forum, that it raised no controversy.

I tend to go with the hight theory as I never experienced in a FW, the same reaction as I have found in a gyro and in the FW, I tended to muster around 300 to 500 feet and found I had little problems except in days when it got windy and even a small angle of bank turn was extremely interesting and could well need lots of aileron and rudder controll,

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Brian Reid
Pooncarie
NSW

Birdy2

But, again it has nothing to do with flying upwind, or down wind, and it makes no difference to the machine, as it dosn't know the difference.
Sam, mate, your missn the point.
Of course the machine dont know wether its turn'n up or down wind. To the machine, it just turned into a downer, thats it.
The st1t only hits the fan IF you make contact with the ground.
Like i said, it dont matter if you turned up into a downer, coz your ground speed will be zilch and if you get overpowered, you just land with buggerall GS.
Its a different critter wen the wind is up your clacker tho init.

There is another gremlime at the 10-20' level that can catch the unwary, [wind or no wind]but you never need to wurry bout it, coz its generaly not a hazard to you blokes.

SamL

Fellers, I 2 have experienced what you are taking about. (In Trikes and Gyros')
"Airspeed is Airspeed" and flying in horizontal winds, (upwind or down) wont make a hoot to your machines.
BUT, If you enter a body of desending air, then you 2 will desend in it. This air is what I'am calling vertical winds, and they come in the form of standing waves, rotors, ground effect, thermals, wind shear, and many other names. If that air is already desending then you 2 will desend even if you push out to 80 Knots. Its known as vectors.
It gets interesting because the ground speed is much much higher, airspeed is usually increased to counter it. Also your climb is just not what you would usually get, and use to.
All because of that body of desending air. The exact same thing can (if conditions are right) happen up wind.
I use a VSI on my gyro and have had my machine flying at 3000 ft, pushing 60 knots and desending at 800ft per min+. I have also flown my old trike heading cross wind, down a creek line on a 15knot day. I was unable to climb out 2 up,(with my mate Alf(also a pilot)) as the rotors comming off the 50 meter bank were holding me down. But once the creek turned down wind, and I finally got far enough away from that bank, then up I popped climbing at 500 ft per minute (down wind).
What all this means is we should all think twice about flying low on windy thermally days, especially if there are trees, hills, mountains around.

Thats probably more that 2 cents.
But hopefully it helps clear things up for some of our more junior pilots.
Regards SamL......

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Mitch

G'Day Gents,

This is a good thread.

Sam, very well articulated and relating your experiences along with the 'Mustering Pilots' really paints a picture.

"What all this means is we should all think twice about flying low on windy thermally days, especially if there are trees, hills, mountains around."

The caution you gave is well received by this low hrs pilot.

Birdy,

Don't do it Mate!.....get the Gremlin out there....

."There is another gremlime (What's a grem lime?) at the 10-20' level that can catch the unwary,( I'm unwary) [wind or no wind]but you never need to wurry bout it, (when someone tells me I don't "Never" need to worry, I worry!)FK! coz its generaly not a hazard to you blokes." (Generally not a hazard! It's a Gremlin! :eek: )

Spit it out Mate, tell us about the Gremlin

Cheers,

Mitch

Birdy2

"Airspeed is Airspeed" and flying in horizontal winds, (upwind or down) wont make a hoot to your machines.
Sam, i know.
I think everyone knows.
If you never touched the stick or throttle, youll be follown the air.
IOW, if its blown from behind you, your GS will increase, in frunt itll decrease, from above [down draft] youll go down and from under you, youll go up. Thats all logical.
We can cancel all these little bumps if we want to, with the stick n power, to a point. Its wen you hit a strong wind and your machine's highest performace rate is less than the wind, your go'n to go which ever way the wind is blown. Same with wind from any direction.
But its the wind thats go'n down that tends to bend machines, coz sumtimes you dont have the power to counter the strength of the downer, and you hit the ground, and this WILL generaly bend things if you have substantial GS. Ie; a tail wind.

Virticaly decending wind will only go down to ground level, at which time it has to 'fan out' like an upsidedown mushroom. If you happen to be over powered by the strength of the downer to the point that it takes you down to ground level, your in abit of trouble.
If you happen to get to ground level where the air mass is spreadn AWAY from you, your in real trouble, coz not only did the downer overpower you, you will have a rapidly increaseing tail wind component to deal with as well, which you cant coz youv already been overpowered.
These little gems BTW, can happen wether its windy or not, coz we're talkn bout thermaly powered wind.
The most dangerous time to be flyn low is on a hot still day over flat country with no thermal triggers.
This situation gives the most power to thermal activity coz the air stratifies and builds up masses of energy, and wen sumthn does trigger a thermal, like a mob of cattle moven off, or a car driven under you, then all that stored heat takes off real quick in a concentrated columb.
And we all know that wot goes up must come down.
If air is riseing rapidly, then air surrounding it must decend rapidly to replace it.

Ground speed has nuthn to do with the hazard level, till you hit it.
0 GS= no damage [ headwind]
high GS= big mess. [tail wind]
Simple.

What all this means is we should all think twice about flying low on windy thermally days, especially if there are trees, hills, mountains around.
Or to put it more simply, dont fly past YOUR/ your machine's limits.


"What all this means is we should all think twice about flying low on windy thermally days, especially if there are trees, hills, mountains around."
Mitch, while mountains on windy days can get kinda rough, they aint anywhere near as scary as flat country ona hot day.
Wind in mountains is predictable. After a while you can 'see' wot the air is do'n coz you can see the things that will cause turbulance, rolls, shears n stuff.
On a hot still day you cant 'see' jack sh1t, coz the triggers aint as obvious, and can change from one hour to the next. But you know theres plenty of stored thermal energy buildn up down there just waitn to scare the crap outa you.

Don't do it Mate!.....get the Gremlin out there....
Nuthn unusual, just anatha 'hole' youll find down low.
Again, you will find um on any day, cept strong wind days, and are strongest on still days over 'green inland' country.
And the holes are BIG.
Ona hot still day, the air below 20' can get very thin.
Above 20' it can be more than 20c cooler and dryer than ground level. This hotter low air, coupled with the humidity from the green vegitation at ground level mean the DA is significantly higher down there than it is at 20', meaning wen you drop low enuff to get into it and your AS was at cruise or lower, you can quickly find yourself dropn like a rock and behind the curve.
But again, it only gets real messy if your go'n DW and you contact the deck.

Mitch

G'Day Fellas,

Just come home from the better part of the day at Cranbourne airfield.
My gyro is hangered there now and ready to go next time out.

Elise and Jillian (Airfield owner) helped strap up the blades (Patroney's) and fit to the rotor head. The blades are heavy but they so much better than the Bensen's. This is the first time in over two years since I flew off Cranbourne, having only recently re-soled at Lameroo.

Interestingly, after setting up and doing the 'mother' of all pre-flights, I asked Jillian, what she thought the wind was blowing at...gusting 15-25 knots. I spin the blades up, (Elise was not there, gone to Launie, soon to return) took to the air and flew a circuit, landed, touch and go and off to the training area for some low level comparisons with Lameroo.

I had felt that southerly gusting about in the circuit. It was not comming over the Mt's, so It was was no problem, until.....low in the training area where off to my right a large stand of thick forrested Gum. The wind was comming at 90 degrees, spilling off the trees and causing a good deal of turbulance. I did a down wind turn at 100 feet, kept the power on nose up a little, wow! I was scooting along . Had 50 knots IAS but with that 20 knots up me date...whoosh!! I think I lost 10 feet in the turn.

This was my first real experience in blowy conditions. I dived down to 20 feet off the deck and flew S & L for a while but was not experiencing the same level of comfort I was having at Lameroo Sunday afternoon. Jillian's cattle dead ahead so back on the stick and wop, wop, wop, Butterfly popped up to 300 ft and I joined the circuit at 500.

Much better away from the tall green stuff and Mts today. Blustery but bloody beautiful.

Lameroo with it's wind and wide open paddocks, was a very different experience than today, with Mts and small paddocks, powerlines and roads, fences everywhere, dams and creeks BUT....I had geese and ducks for company and spoted one Tassy WedgeTail (endangered species) off in the distance. Nil aircraft. I reckon the Patroney's are the 'duck's nuts'. If the AK's ( Jeff Henley-Smith's) are anything like them then I understand why many of the boys recommend them too.

There was a Lightwing that had a bad landing yesterday (crashed) and sustained about $10,000 worth of damage.

My gyro is hangered along with one other and the bloke is a Pilot and has a gyro...how about that.

Thanks to all you blokes for discussing this topic.
Revision is priority on my list and I'll be keeping an eye open for any sneeky Gremlins or other nasties.

I enjoyed flying my gyro today because of you blokes who contribute to this and other forums...Thanks Fellas.

Oh yeah, I got my Dr to give me the OK to fly and I had no trouble tapping the blades up myself, (mainly because I had 20 knots blowing thru them before I even got going) and kept the disk tilted into the wind whilst taxiing 45 mtrs to the club house. Did the smart thing and let them wind down almost all the way, before reaching up and helping them stop.
So the thread on blade management came in very handy too.

Gyros....to much fun to be legal!

Mitch

Birdy2

:d :d :d