Sparrowhawk

[ken watson]

Does anyone know what caused the recent sparrowhawk crash near Goulburn? I'm interested as I run a similar engine configuration. Ken

[Brian]

Ken, could you email me again at eulo2@bigpond.com

I replied to your email but it came back for some reason. Thanks

[Aussie_Paul]

Oh dear. Did the SH have problems? Bugger. :yes:

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[russ]

Not nice paul............Grrrrrrr :no:

[rotor]

First I heard of this.

What have you heard on the grapevine fellas??

rotor

[Birdy2]

Oh dear. Did the SH have problems? Bugger
And sum people wunder why id like to sink the boot into PB sumtimes. :fingers:

I only hope Mr. Bruty, for your sake, that the FB never hasa hitch and exceads all expectations, coz if it dont, your go'n to be hounded, and youll only have your own stupid self to blame. :(

[Brian]

Don't like to hear of anyone having problems, glad it wasn't a fatal.
I'm no techy but I got to say that the firebird looks a whole lot better gyro that the kite hawk on steroids.

I think you need to be a bit more diplomatic PB, that wasn't called for.
Can be the smallest thing cause a major glitch.

[rotor]

Can be the smallest thing cause a major glitch.



Yes, more times then not the pilot is the culprit!


rotor

[Brian]

Can be the smallest thing cause a major glitch.



Yes, more times then not the pilot is the culprit!


rotor


Well, with the SH rotor, the pilot is about the smallest bit of that great mass of alloy.
but yes, you are right, Birdy has a great term to describe these pilots, "nutters"

[Aussie_Paul]

I don't like seeing anything bent, especially something as expensive as that, plus I was looking forward to my fly in it. :dribble:

I had done quite a bit to help Greg out with some noise problems.

It was not meant as a smart arse comment BUT of course some of you lot would have to take it the wrong way. Shame on you. :throwup:

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[bones]

So OK then what the hell happened :question2:

[ken watson]

I would'nt boast about the help with noise Paul as it was still really noisy and this had caused him no end of problems. The genius'in the U.S. have the same problem and have not fixed it. They need to address their noise problem as it reflects on all of us. The noise of the SP caused all gyro's to be banned from Jaspers. Only those that prove they have a quiet machine have been allowed to fly back in. I think we should all try to make our machines as quiet as possible. We wont have to worry about CLT if we are all banned because of noise. Hope the chook doesn't crow like a rooster at 5am. Regards, Quiet Ken.

[Sonnyj]

I just have this to say.
If it's too loud---------your too old.
So for me----yea strat pipes on the Harley, and a prop that sounds like a airplane,is a good thing. Folks that would grumble about the noise a prop makes, would grip if they was gonna be hung with a new rope. My advice to them would be, cry me a river, build me a bridge, and GET over it.
Just my 2 cents :paper: :focus:
:cheers:
Sonny

[russ]

I don't like seeing anything bent, especially something as expensive as that, plus I was looking forward to my fly in it. :dribble:

I had done quite a bit to help Greg out with some noise problems.

It was not meant as a smart arse comment BUT of course some of you lot would have to take it the wrong way. Shame on you. :throwup:

Aussie Paul. :wave:



sorry paul.........me comment still stands..........."not nice"

be buggered if i can read it any other way.......[then again, i could be wrong]

[Aussie_Paul]

I would'nt boast about the help with noise Paul as it was still really noisy and this had caused him no end of problems. The genius'in the U.S. have the same problem and have not fixed it. They need to address their noise problem as it reflects on all of us. The noise of the SP caused all gyro's to be banned from Jaspers. Only those that prove they have a quiet machine have been allowed to fly back in. I think we should all try to make our machines as quiet as possible. We wont have to worry about CLT if we are all banned because of noise. Hope the chook doesn't crow like a rooster at 5am. Regards, Quiet Ken.


Ken, I lent Greg a prop. I also told them how to fix the propblem, as I have with Hybrid. I used my mobile with 100% success in Hybrid. I have two pet gyroplane subjects. Stability and noise, and I have solved both, so I am happy I won't be the one banned from anywhere. :yes:

Russ said, ".......[then again, i could be wrong]" You are Russel. :yes:


Aussie Paul. :wave:

[Drifter]

Haven't been here long but I can see that you are a stirrer Aussie. I too thought your comment was out of line. Are you really that insensitive?

[Brian]

Haven't been here long but I can see that you are a stirrer Aussie. I too thought your comment was out of line. Are you really that insensitive?


Its not that he [PB] is insensitive but he sometimes writes stuff that can be taken the wrong way, sort of 'tongue in cheek' comments...have no idea why I'm defending PB

Okay, 1 What happened ???
2.Why is the SH so noisy?
3.Had Greg tried the new prop. [it seems from Stan posts on the US forum that an IVO in flight adjustable pitch prop had solved a lot of noise problems.]

Its just my opinion that having been to Kerang at a fly in and there were one or two gyros [2.2 suby's] there and they had good mufflers, they were no quieter off the ground than gyros with no muffler leading me to the conclusion that a lot of noise comes from the prop. The SH would have to be extra loud if anyone was silly enough to put those 'trapps /megaphones] on. We all know how loud a Harley sounds and yes, I enjoy that Harley sound but not in the sky thanks.
Also, I think by pitching your prop up so that you can cruise around at say 4000 revs instead of 4800 /5200 will help the noise level too.

[Aussie_Paul]

yes, when I re read it I can see how it was not what I actually ment. Silly me.

Greg tried the prop. It was one I had spare for an ej-22, but it gave them an idea how Micheal at heliptera is on the money with noise reduction props. I think Greg had one made and even though it reduced the decibal reading considerably compared to the WD supplied by SH, it was not enough to satisfy the complainers. Once you have a complaint it would have to be whisper quiet for them to accept it.

That u beat RAF that was sold here in Ballarat has been bought by Greg a guy from Canberra. He will be flying in a noise sensitive area that has a lot of horses. The machine is fitted at the moment has a 4 blade Bolly that has had 1" cut off each blade and is extremly noisy. I have told him to order a prop from Heliptera otherwise he will be banned from his area.

For approx US400.00 I could completely solve the SH noise problem.

Of course the problem is the horrendously heavy gyro needing soooo much HP to fly. 33' blades would help as well. :yes:

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[Drifter]

top wire cartwheeled...

[russ]

Drifter........i just pulled me post off......2nd thoughts.....sorry

[crusty]

Sonny o'll mate, shot gun pipes on the Harley & loud gyros.
Me & you (bad grammer) talked bout this some time ago, if memory serves me we didnt know what all the fuss was about........But no doubt us non conformists will be told, ay bro !!
REBLES FOREVER FOREVER REBLES. :pistoles: :friday:

[Brian]

Sonny o'll mate, shot gun pipes on the Harley & loud gyros.
Me & you (bad grammer) talked bout this some time ago, if memory serves me we didnt know what all the fuss was about........But no doubt us non conformists will be told, ay bro !!
REBLES FOREVER FOREVER REBLES. :pistoles: :friday:


I'm all for freedom etc etc but in todays world you have a situation where you have a very small percentage of people who have a lot of clout with authorities. Couple this with aircraft and airports and you have trouble. There is a big move to close ALL GA airports like Morrabin Vic and Essendon closing is just a matter of time then you and I come along flying "those dangerous ultalights that crash all the time" [gyros ]

A gyro has a bit of problem in that its quite slow compared to the average FW that can be just as noisy [Cessna 210], the 210 has come and gone while our gyro hasnt even arrived overhead yet and then you can hear the gyro departing for some time[ I could listen to gyros all day] and if its making more noise than usual, then someone is likely to comlain [people have become very good at complaing now days and there are a lot of laws relating to nosie. So keep the TRapps on the Harleys !!

[ken watson]

spot on Brian. Mine is said to be the quietest around. Good exhaust, but more importantly a big prop spinning slowly. Reduction is 2.62-1 and prop is 3 blade 76"warp drive. The SH has a reduction close to 2-1. That is the problem.
In regards to noise. I have 2 jet skis stuck in my shed that we havn't used for years. They were standard and quiet, but all the wankers with the noisy ones caused so much trouble that no one was welcome anymore. The NSW govt then legislated to make all users uncomfortable, placing restrictions on areas and increasing rego and licensing to ridiculous levels. Yeah, right, lets go down this path again! The gyro can keep the skis company. If you really want people to look at you that much , fly naked so everyone gets a laugh. Ken

[Aussie_Paul]

spot on Brian. Mine is said to be the quietest around. Good exhaust, but more importantly a big prop spinning slowly. Reduction is 2.62-1 and prop is 3 blade 76"warp drive. The SH has a reduction close to 2-1. That is the problem.
Ken


Ken, at 5000 engine rpm, if I have worked it out correctly, your prop tip speed is 10% slower than the SH. When I changed my RAF ratio from 2.1 to 2.37 I had a wonderfully quiet gyro. That was a 12% reduction in tip speed. When I went to the 2 blade timber prop it was almost as good a noise reduction again. This is going on what the people who hang 'round the airport and those I fly over say. :yes:

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[Brian]

Paul, I dont think you got that quite right as your 2.37 is in between 2.62 and the SH's 2 to 1 ratio and the SH turns a 68 inch prop I think.
With the 2.62 ratio you only need 3800 in my gyro to get a genuine 50 knots for 15.5 litres per hour so you dont need to use 5000 revs unless you want to go quick or use a lot of fuel.

[Aussie_Paul]

Paul, I dont think you got that quite right as your 2.37 is in between 2.62 and the SH's 2 to 1 ratio and the SH turns a 68 inch prop I think.
With the 2.62 ratio you only need 3800 in my gyro to get a genuine 50 knots for 15.5 litres per hour so you dont need to use 5000 revs unless you want to go quick or use a lot of fuel.


Did you work it out with a calculator Brian? 5000 engine rpm was just a mathematical figure I chose to work from.

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[Brian]

No, I didnt work it out on a calculator but just thought that the higher ratio gearbox would be turning over slower although the longer prop will have the tip speed up a bit. You are probably right Paul, it just didnt seem right.

Just my opinion but I think props need to be pitched so that the motor [suby 2.2 or 2.5 ] are only doing about 4000 in cruise, least that will quiet the motor down some then its just a matter of props.
While I know you like the wooden props, I've yet to have a real close look at them and I wonder if they are tough enough for the conditions I have to endure like rocks ,sand, bits of wire and ....sometimes, heavy rain. The WD is tough and easy to fix if you take a bit out of it. The Magnum Ivo seems to be much quieter and I'm sure that Rob could make a prop similar or even better.

The muffler you have Paul certainly quietens the motor down. No question bout that !

[ken watson]

The fixed wing fellas at Jaspers reckon that most of my noise comes from the rotors. They can hear my rotors coming but can't hear my motor or prop. They always ask why the others can't make theirs quiet like mine. My answer is they can, but choose not to. The best part about the big slow prop is I still have exceptional performance, Unlike the SH which seems to struggle into the air, pulling 400 plus kg plus passengers. Our biggest enemy is weight. Our second biggest is noise. It seems they go hand in hand. Ken

[Brian]

Interesting Ken, what size and type of rotors are you running ??

[richo]

Getting back to the topic.... Does anyone know what happened to the SH? - Michael.

[rotor]

top wire cartwheeled...


Maybe I'm blind.... but where did this come from John?
Did he hit a fence??
Landing or taking off??


rotor

[bones]

Oh dear. Did the SH have problems? Bugger. :yes:

Aussie Paul. :wave:
Paul your lower than a ****ing snakes arsehole with the shits :censored:

[Doc Holliday]

Oh dear. Did the SH have problems? Bugger. :yes:

Aussie Paul. :wave:

You Cur are the rudest, arrogant, self centered son of a friggin bitch i have ever come across, fortunately we havent met, but i can tell it wouldnt be good if you started talking about people behind their backs like you just did then, and your such a perfect pilot yourself arent you, i was reading back throught a few things and found that it was you that WROTE OFF one of the safest gyro's to ever leave the ground, and because you were doing the old "look at me, i'm good" If i ever had the money to get a 2 seat gyro and after reading that post of yours even if they do ever get off the ground, I WONT BE BUYING ONE of those what are they called flame chooks????
I hope you fail at this venture, and end up on the arse of your pants :fingers:
I'm going over to the yanky site now,,,, i bet you been over there big noting your crack about this subject on that site too :fingers: :fingers: :fingers:
I think you should chance your name from Aussie Paul to Pommie Paul, cause frig you do some whinging and bitching, and you dont reflect Aussie values at all.... :censored: :chainsaw: :evil2:

[Fencing Wire]

Getting back to the topic.... Does anyone know what happened to the SH? - Michael.


Getting back to the topic? We haven't been anywhere near it. As far as I can see, Ken's post is the only one that appears to say the SH crashed.

[russ]

Yes .......there has been an incident involving a "SH"

details will be posted at the appropriate time, by those encumbered to do so.

I can say, it was engine related,[ loss of power ] initially,..........no serious injuries.

[CrashTestDummy]

AND THE ENGINE WAS.....?????

[Fencing Wire]

Yes .......there has been an incident involving a "SH"

details will be posted at the appropriate time, by those encumbered to do so.

I can say, it was engine related,[ loss of power ] initially,..........no serious injuries.


Thanks Russ/Ken,
Bad news for the poor bloke, but good news no-one hurt. I don't think anyone means to intrude. The interest for most is "the lesson". Rarely does something go wrong whereby we can't all learn something.

[disco]

Sorry to hear about Greg's accident. Glad to hear everyone ok. The motor is a 2.5 litre subaru.

[ken watson]

G'day Brian, Blades are 29ft AK's.The reason for any engine failure really interests me as it may save someone else from a future problem. It also shows the need to practise engine out landings. Believe it or not, flying involves being able to get back on the ground safely in any circumstance. Ken

[Aussie_Paul]

G'day Brian, Blades are 29ft AK's.The reason for any engine failure really interests me as it may save someone else from a future problem. It also shows the need to practise engine out landings. Believe it or not, flying involves being able to get back on the ground safely in any circumstance. Ken


Ken, as Tim says. There is no need to bend a gyro because of engine failure. Practice practice and more practice is the only key. As time goes on you need less and less parctice to keep your hand in.

I hope you had a nice festive season. :yes:

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[Brian]

G'day Brian, Blades are 29ft AK's.The reason for any engine failure really interests me as it may save someone else from a future problem. It also shows the need to practise engine out landings. Believe it or not, flying involves being able to get back on the ground safely in any circumstance. Ken


Thanks Ken, yes, engine failures are not a reason to bend a gyro. Its something that during training the student really needs to become very proficient at and I really wonder about the quality of instruction being taught.

[russ]

Bit rich sugesting an engine out forced landing that went wrong, is allied to inferior training.

BTW........we are yet to hear the FACTS of the matter. My spies tell me there is more to this, let's wait for the detail.

Have taught many guys over many yrs...........sometimes,when the chips are down, all the training for emergencies, goes out the window. Why.........buggered if i know. We can act / do illogically in those times of stress, no matter how well YOU have been trained......strange critters humans

[Aussie_Paul]

It is always nice to have your first emergency to see how you ACTUALLY handle it. :yes:

I have been a bit lucky and made more goood than bad decisions in emergencies.

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[Brian]

Bit rich sugesting an engine out forced landing that went wrong, is allied to inferior training.

I re read my post and I see where you could read that into what I said.

BTW........we are yet to hear the FACTS of the matter. My spies tell me there is more to this, let's wait for the detail.Probably is more to the story so it will be interesting hearing the FULL story

Have taught many guys over many yrs...........sometimes,when the chips are down, all the training for emergencies, goes out the window. Why.........buggered if i know. We can act / do illogically in those times of stress, no matter how well YOU have been trained......strange critters humans


I guess I'm a super pilot then...only kidding, its just that the way I was trained made it nearly impossible to act any different to what I was trained to do when the noise stopped and I assumed everyone else would be much the same.I have only had one engine out [run out of fuel ]where I had any altitude to play with, the rest have been at very low altitude where there has been no time to think .

Russ, I'm not having a crack at you re my comment regarding instruction, its just that between the Ozz forum and particularly the US forum, so many accidents /incidents are the result of poor training methods and some incidents are so basic that you really wonder why these guys were flying at all. I guess a number of factors can come into the equation like social pilots with too much time between flights, older guys with reflexes that are not up to scratch or guys that don't treat gyros with the respect they deserve !!etc etc etc I think you get the gist of what I'm talking about.

[russ]

She's cool mate......your input is always held in high regard, keep it coming :cheers:

[russ]

Sorry, me again.........somewhere back in this thread it is said that this incident was after a touchdown ground roll of about 50 metres........
I then prompted..........must have had a 40 plus something tail wind.....

I bet......this pilot is ex "GA" and years of high speed touchdowns is bleedin hard to knock out of em...........[ bet me left nut ]

This "Practice, practise, practise" thing is absolutely essential.......but I bet most, if not all, get all lined up on "final" before they pull power.........sorry, that's cheating

Pull power when you is hopeing the noise will not stop........then hava go at getting down, or back etc etc........then you will get good at the real thing, hopefully

Have said on previous occassions every pilot should have stuck on their dash..........their best glide speed [ no time for guessing in moments of drama ]
Have also said, get into the practise of....."liftoff" then pull to one side of the strip, fly parrelell, as you are climbing out, this makes getting back "above" the strip quicker,easier in "that" moment of drama, if you need to do a 180 turn.

I'm done........enough yappin

[Brian]

She's cool mate......your input is always held in high regard, keep it coming :cheers:



Very nice of you to say that.Thank you. :wave:

[rotor]

Brian,

Straight thinking and natural ability have a lot to do with this. You only have to look at how people handle situations on the road and think that some of these people fly .... scary eh!! :yikes:

It wouldn't matter how much training some people had .....

rotor

[Brian]

Brian,

Straight thinking and natural ability have a lot to do with this. You only have to look at how people handle situations on the road and think that some of these people fly .... scary eh!! :yikes:

It wouldn't matter how much training some people had .....

rotor


Have to agree with you there rotor. I believe and have said a few times that gyro flying is for everyone. It is different and Rosco had a bruised elbow trying to get the FW out of me and I have no doubt that he would say that I wasn't one of his best students by a long long way.However, he taught me well and we did nothing but practice simulated engine outs for hours and hours till I could do them in my sleep.

[Aussie_Paul]

Brian,

Straight thinking and natural ability have a lot to do with this. You only have to look at how people handle situations on the road and think that some of these people fly .... scary eh!! :yikes:

It wouldn't matter how much training some people had .....

rotor


Have to agree with you there rotor. I believe and have said a few times that gyro flying is for everyone. It is different and Rosco had a bruised elbow trying to get the FW out of me and I have no doubt that he would say that I wasn't one of his best students by a long long way.However, he taught me well and we did nothing but practice simulated engine outs for hours and hours till I could do them in my sleep.


I don't have to knock the FW out of students Brian. These days FW students are easier to train than people who have never flown. It was different though in my days of unstable machines.

Aussie Paul. :wave:

[ken watson]

G'day Russ, The pilot was an instructor. I think it is reasonable that he should be able to land an engine out. But I suppose that depends on how much gyro experience he has.Goulburn has some pretty nice, big clean paddocks. I know cause its where I fly. I don't know where you get your reports from, but I think I may be closer.Be careful your spies dont just tell you what they want you to know. Dont forget Russ this is the best and safest gyro in the world and the people who promote them dont seem to have a problem critisizing other machines and pointing out how dangerous they are. Hard to believe they crash at all.People who live in glass houses..........Ken

[russ]

Ken, might be best to read way back in this thread where it was stated the machine had "landed"
it was after screemin along the strip for 50 metres it came to grief.

50m ground roll after touchdown.............fair go
[unless it had a 45knt tail wind.]

Where you state "these are the best and safest gyro in the world", what authority stated that.
Where has "anyone" here, also "bagged" these machines as inferior or suspect

Me spies are credible........guaranteed [ this bingle,and any bingle is one too many,let's wait for the "official" report, and learn from that,what "may" have been avoidable.]

[Birdy2]

Me spies are credible
Thats a reliefe Russ. :chuckel:
gess you sacked the old ones then. :evil_laugh:

[Brian]

I'll fess up, I have bagged them and a lot more than once, matter of fact I will say it again, they are the biggest lump of ...... :blahblah: :yikes: :yikes:

No, I said they were a chicken hawk on steroids and the D7 [dozer] of the shies.

When you hear some SH's have 190 odd horses to keep them up, then what can you say ???? ::) ::)

[russ]

As a "stump puller" they do a damn fine job.

Am told the yanks are tryin to lighten em up bigtime..........[ still ugly though ]

Now....I have bagged em :wave:

[ken watson]

Russ, searched through the thread and can't find the 50 meters business. Your not making this up are you? I just dont understand the ëverything from the U.S. must be better mentality. I think they cater for the person who likes helicopters but can't afford one, so lets build a big fat look-a-like.So what if you've got a tailwind; make it a head wind. A gyro turns pretty quick you know.The other thing is I don't think it would have been low to the ground as most FW pilots think anything under 5000 is low. Plenty of time in that situation.
The critcism I talk of was directly from SH people. They are cvonvinced that theirs is the only true safe machine. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. Time will tell. Maybe they shouldn't bost too much until they have the runs on the board.I now have met 2 pilots who have crashed the Sh, and sadly one fatally. I hope things work out for it, but people should realise that nothing is truely safe. If you dont want risk , dont fly and dont believe all the sales pitches. Take up chess and watch for blisters. An "" absolutely safe" machine won't make up for a pilots own inadequacy's and he should not be made to believe this. I think Volvo and Mercedes have discovered this. Ken

[Brian]

"Safe machine" Ken, the SH probably is, the trouble is that in some hands, nothing is 'safe'.I read of pilots talking flying at 100 knots etc and I'm not sure that when there's a hiccup, that the pilot is up to the task.Could be that some pilots just think they know it all and push the gyro too hard.

I wonder about a gyro flying at say 100 plus knots, well, really, I'm wondering what the rotors are doing and could it be that the rotors are getting close to a speed where they might become unstable ?? Has any work been undertaken in this area???

In the "safe" manufactured gyros, you have to include Magni's /the ELA and the MT something although they only come in the bob sled style which I personally think borders on ridiculous. Why, cause if you are going to have a passenger, I want them right next to me so we can share the experience.

The Americans might not include anything not built there as competition the the SH?????