rotor performance

[bones]

Ok i want some info here on my new rotors, they are 27' patroneys, why do they feel like they are falling out of the sky at 45 kts and climb like they are attached to the space shuttle at 55-60 kts, come on Russ give me some feed back, or your oppion :paper:

[russ]

Ezy...........different blade profiles have pluses and minuses. You need to decide which useage from your blades you want........then accept the minus that comes with that type blade
Now there's some guys who say their blades are the beez kneez at everything.......yet to fly a blade that is one of em....... Flown a lot of blades by the way

Can't really say it's a level playing field, coz every blade manufacturer has different ways of building a blade........there's so many little quirks each of em do to THIER blade

So 28 footers from him.........will be different to 28 footers from the other guy.

The first blade maker that can produce a blade that is lite,spins up quick,lifts like hell, goes like hell, smooth as, slow as...............he'll be a rich man

[bones]

but it gonna be hard to see moo cows at 60 kts
think i need more time in the seat

[Sonnyj]

G'Day Mark
Could it be that the AOA is set a little steep ?
It seems to me that if you have say 2 deg. ( just a figure) the blades would react in the way you describe, Climb like crazy under power and drop out fast with less or no power.

So if a man was to take the AOA down to say 1.5 deg. would this make the blades react slower?
Just guessing here, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers
Sonny

[Butch S.]

Gday mates
I have been lucky enough to fly different gyros same blades ........different blades/ same gyro
& have found that they perform very diferently
with ea81 Rosco gyro 76" prop 2.62-1 / 27ftPatronys fly slow great same with 26ft Goodys 30-40
with ea81 Rosco type gyro & 72"prop 2.2-1 / not so good slow but great 50-60

This points to the need for more static thrust to fly slow as I have also flown a
CLT gyro ea81 with same 27ftPat & 2.4 red & 68" prop now great 60-70 & brick below 40
Butch S.

[russ]

[color=red]NEWS FLASH

Ok guys........getting onboard here tonite is a guy that's forgotten more about blades and props, than we all know collectively. Don't flood him with questions, mite scare em off
His name is Rob Patroney, he makes those glass blades many of us fly with

Cheers............. :cheers:

[BeefBear]

Russell, That's great news.

Ted :peace:

[bones]

That will be great to have Rob on board, as i was going to ring him about his blades that i have, but i can now put a few questions to him on here so we can all see... :cheers:

[bones]

Ok Russ here's another question for you then,, would that dirty great HS in the middle of my tail be making it harder to fly slow as in, when i pull the stick back to load the rotors, instaed of the frame only going half way the HS is making it go farther nose high then all of a sudden the gyro is either climbing like hell or only just holding altitude because everything is pionted at the sky, and in doing that the HS then becomes a big air brake, pointed the wrong way to where i would like to go??
Hmmmm may have to ring someone about this, dont know if i even understand what i just wrote..
It just that i cant seem to get a st/level below about 35 kts, now with 27' patroney blades, 100hp, and an AUW of about 300 kgs is that about right or am i expecting to much???
Yes i know its real shity air at the moment, trying to understand this machine, if i can understand it better then i can fly it better

[Birdy2]

How accruate is the ASI Mark??
35k min sounds very fast for a machine like that.
Is that 35k on full power, just before it starts to sink??

[russ]

Ok Russ here's another question for you then,, would that dirty great HS in the middle of my tail be making it harder to fly slow as in, when i pull the stick back to load the rotors, instaed of the frame only going half way the HS is making it go farther nose high then all of a sudden the gyro is either climbing like hell or only just holding altitude because everything is pionted at the sky, and in doing that the HS then becomes a big air brake, pointed the wrong way to where i would like to go??YOUR H.S IS IN LINE WITH YOUR PROP WASH, GETIN BLASTED BIG TIME, AT EXACTLY THE SAME ATTITUDE AS THE KEEL, SO ACTING AS A BRAKE, NO WAY
Hmmmm may have to ring someone about this, dont know if i even understand what i just wrote..
It just that i cant seem to get a st/level below about 35 kts, now with 27' patroney blades, 100hp, and an AUW of about 300 kgs is that about right or am i expecting to much???YOUR MACHINE HAS A ROTAX, SINGLE SEATER........300KG SEEMS WRONG??????
Yes i know its real shity air at the moment, trying to understand this machine, if i can understand it better then i can fly it betterWITHOUT FLYIN IT MESELF, ITS HARD TO KNOW WHAT IS MAYBE GOING ON WITH THE MACHINE.....TO BE HONEST, YOUR PROB IS A BIT WEIRD, DON,T ADD UP. NICE LITE MACHINE, GREAT POWER TO WEIGHT, SHYTE IT SHOULD CLIMB LIKE A LOVE SICK ANGEL

[russ]

Sorry..........forgot.
Your HS is not BIG........you got a "Dull" tail, which are good
me tandem had a huge HS, as you know.......made it rock solid in the air

me thinks you mite be zipping along at 60 kts, hauling the stick back, leaving the power setting as is, getting nose high as it climbs real good as it's washing off air speed, then when you loose a HEAP of speed, you are then dialing on power to stay up , but you by now have your nose too high to sustain flite, so sink it does. Me tandem could maintain level flite at bowt 25kts, you should be even better
Try pulling of some power, ease the stick back, then by using power and stick adjustments force it to fly level, try it at 40 then 30 then 20 etc, mate you gota fly SLOW......that machine I mean

[BeefBear]

Russell,

IN my FW training I used to get a crack across the knuckles for not getting it right when attempting a different manoeuver. APT for climb or PAT for descent. The trainer used to say to me that I was behind the aircraft, come up to speed. How about if Mark was to write a shorthand note that he understood, to remind himself of the settings for his gyro, would that help?

Ted

[russ]

sorry mate........don't follow your terms "APT" etc ??????

Every pilot should know his best climb speed.......BEST glide speed.....and fastest speeds.

just because you got your nose rite up, don't mean you are climbing like hell

These speeds are a must to know

Always promoted glide and max speeds to be shown clearly on the dash somewhere

[ when I say glide speed, I'm meaning the best speed to get the futherest........uno, to that gap in the trees............way over there, coz me engine has just quit ] :yikes:

[bones]

How accruate is the ASI Mark??
I as best i can guess it to be fairly close to right..
35k min sounds very fast for a machine like that.
Is that 35k on full power, just before it starts to sink??

Yes that is just before it starts to sink under full noise.

[bones]

Sorry..........forgot.
Your HS is not BIG........you got a "Dull" tail, which are good
me tandem had a huge HS, as you know.......made it rock solid in the air

me thinks you mite be zipping along at 60 kts, hauling the stick back, leaving the power setting as is, getting nose high as it climbs real good as it's washing off air speed, then when you loose a HEAP of speed, you are then dialing on power to stay up , but you by now have your nose too high to sustain flite, so sink it does. Me tandem could maintain level flite at bowt 25kts, you should be even better
Try pulling of some power, ease the stick back, then by using power and stick adjustments force it to fly level, try it at 40 then 30 then 20 etc, mate you gota fly SLOW......that machine I mean

Ok then here is the thing that i'm having trouble working out, cause it flys so well, yes if i'm gridding a paddock at 60 kts, i see something, i pull the power off, to let it slow and loose height as i'm normally at about 250-300', as it gets to about 40-45 kts start easeing the stick back then at the same time start applying the power to full and adjust the stick to stay at about the 30' above the tree tops, and if i hold it back beyond 35-30 kts it starts to sink, and below 30 kts it really starts to drop like a rock, now this used to work fine one the old gyro, back to near stopped, now if there is a different or better way of doing it please, i'm all ears.. keeping of i mind that this is with basicaly no wind...Yes if i want it to climb it will do from 100' to 1000' in about 30-40 secs..

[russ]

well that sounds rite, wat you are doin...........bugger this full throttle bit hangin over dem trees, anything happins you got no choice but drop that nose, I always liked a bit of throttle up me sleeve.........just in case

remember too, your last machine was half your weight to wat you got now, so it's not fair tryin to compare em

Ok.........you wana go slower......seems you gota get a bigger disc now.....rich guy like you ....no probs :yikes:

[bones]

well that sounds rite, wat you are doin...........bugger this full throttle bit hangin over dem trees, anything happins you got no choice but drop that nose, I always liked a bit of throttle up me sleeve.........just in case

So is that what's causing all the leaf green stains on the ends of my rotors, :yikes: they used to be white, now they is white with green racing strips :crazyas:

[russ]

TOSSER :crazyas:

[bones]

You think i'm jokin don't you,,, :wave: i'll take some picys

[Birdy2]

I know i'm only a SCG, but that don't make sence to me.
[let us know wot difference, if any Mark, re ph call] I'd like to know why its sink'n at 35K with full noise, it should out climb a rocket.

[russ]

just thawt of sumin here.............rob was pitching blades quite fine for a few customers way back, like abowt 2 degrees or less, they wanted to fly quick, not float around. Could be you have a set of them type blades.............that would explain your prob for sure...........maybe

[rotor]

Mark, Rob Patrony's log in is robP. As of yet he hasn't visited the site, you'll have to give him a ring or you jusy might be waiting for a while for an answer. His phone number is in the "Trade Links" on the site ..

[Butch S.]

Bones HOW BIG IS YOUR PROP ? What is your static thrust ? how slow could you fly with your old blades
Butch

[bones]

Bones HOW BIG IS YOUR PROP ?
72" WD prop


What is your static thrust ?

Ummm as much as a 72" prop on the back of 100hp motor on red line..


how slow could you fly with your old blades, Butch

never had any other blades on this machine..

[BeefBear]

APT = Attitude Power Trim
PAT = Power Attitude Trim

Just for you Russ, everyone else had it worked out months ago

[russ]

Geez.........I been wrong again, coz I "PBA" and that's wat I teach me newbies too :paper:

[BeefBear]

PBA...Pass Beer Around?

[bones]

Ok after talking to Rob this morn, i done a couple of things and took it for a fly this arvo, and well probably different air but was holding it at about 25 kts, and thats not quiet full noise, so if i put some more pitch into the rotors as suggested it maybe just fine, so it looks like out with the spanners and we will see, or the other option that was put to me was a longer hub bar with more pitch on it.Rob said to try to polish the blades and get a shine back on them so it may have helped abit thou it felt different air today, and Birdy the trim spring thing did work, it made it want to sit on 45-50 kts alot easier then before.

[russ]

just bin gasin to rob........put your questions on the site, he's waitin :dance:

[bones]

Ok then Rob, after talkin with you i shimmed the rotors like we talked, only shimming material i could find was beer tin, at about 4 thou, so 4 layers of that made a difference,though in actuate as now i have quiet a bit of shake in the stick, i intend to get proper material and redo the job, and was going to double the setting i have now to around 30 thou,(depending on material i can get, trying to use as least amount of pieces per side to try to keep the changes more exact) and if it is sucessful what is the easiest way of making the change perment? For taking the rotors apart all the time...

[Butch S.]

Bones
went to see rob p yesterday
you could send rotors back to rob he will make the changes or phone him he could posably send you new pitch blocks
Butch

[bones]

steve, just waiting to see what i need first, though the idea of new pitch blocks is a good one and was suggested to me last night by Russell, i need to find out what angle i want first, before doing anything perment. thanks

[Birdy2]

Mark, the AKs i got on the wasa shook like a dog sh>>>>razers and where bout 8 inches outa track.
As it turned out, it was the RAF head that wasn't setup proper, not the blades. So it mite be worth check'n out the head, or else them blades will be crook if you put them on sumthn else.

[bones]

Birdy they was pretty smooth maybe not perfect thou, its only started to shake since i started stuffin with em, so its just a matter of getting the right shims then retracking them..

[russ]

the more you crank up the pitch, the more you getim teetering etc etc , coz they is grabin more air. the more you up the pitch, the harder it will be to HAND start em

to the best of my recollection all makers stay under 3 degrees...........I think........geez wat you got there now??????????

you had smooth blades before this repitching.........now you got shit

[bones]

i still havent done anything else with em, i cant get any,ANY shimming material in town, Shit i cant believe it...

[Aussie_Paul]

Russell,

IN my FW training I used to get a crack across the knuckles for not getting it right when attempting a different manoeuver. APT for climb or PAT for descent. The trainer used to say to me that I was behind the aircraft, come up to speed. How about if Mark was to write a shorthand note that he understood, to remind himself of the settings for his gyro, would that help?

Ted


PAT for climb and descent. APT for leveling off. That was back in 1965 wheion I learnt GA fixed wing and I don't think that it has changed in GA or stable gyroplaners since then!!!!

Aussie Paul. :mrhappy

[maulonir]

I concur with you Russ on the more pitch being harder to start. I set up my new hub bar on an other set of larkin blades to take them from 23 to 24 footers Set em up at 2.5 pitch and had a hell of a time starting em and didn't really know why Spoke to young Les edgo about it and he sugested knocking some pitch off, so I did and what a difference it made.

[bones]

I concur with you Russ on the more pitch being harder to start. I set up my new hub bar on an other set of larkin blades to take them from 23 to 24 footers Set em up at 2.5 pitch and had a hell of a time starting em and didn't really know why Spoke to young Les edgo about it and he sugested knocking some pitch off, so I did and what a difference it made.

I am well aware of this problem with dailing on more pitch however that is a small price to pay when i'm chaseing max lift, i have a very good prerotator so that wont be a problem anyhow.
While we are on this subject, how do you read the degs of pitch on rotors?? one would think its the angle off the hub bar, ie hub level the bottom edge of the rotor is faceing up 2degs for eg.
Mark

[russ]

Russell,

IN my FW training I used to get a crack across the knuckles for not getting it right when attempting a different manoeuver. APT for climb or PAT for descent. The trainer used to say to me that I was behind the aircraft, come up to speed. How about if Mark was to write a shorthand note that he understood, to remind himself of the settings for his gyro, would that help?

Ted


PAT for climb and descent. APT for leveling off. That was back in 1965 wheion I learnt GA fixed wing and I don't think that it has changed in GA or stable gyroplaners since then!!!!

Aussie Paul. :mrhappy




Well.............it's nice to be different, me that is :pelvic_thrust2:

Coz I do the"PBA" system.........goin up or cumin down

"Power...........Before..........Attitude" and I ain't changing :peace:

[BeefBear]

Paul you are correct, and I stand corrected.

Ted

[Sonnyj]

I am well aware of this problem with dailing on more pitch however that is a small price to pay when i'm chaseing max lift, i have a very good prerotator so that wont be a problem anyhow.
While we are on this subject, how do you read the degs of pitch on rotors?? one would think its the angle off the hub bar, ie hub level the bottom edge of the rotor is faceing up 2degs for eg.
Mark

Alright then,
I reckon its time to see if ole Sonny's learned anything from reading the forums.
I figger the first thing we need to know is, are the blades manufactured with a twist. The way we find this out is ether call the builder or, place the blade upside down on 3 or 4 bean bags or the like, then level the root end of the blade. Now go the the tip and use your angle finder ( a tool you can get at most hardware stores for cheep ). Now you should get a reading from 0 to 3 degrees 3 deg. being the normal max pitch in a gyro rotor. 0 if the blade is not twisted. Now we can set the AOA of the blade by checking the hub bar for level. Set the level transversly across the hub bar and make it level. Some thing to remember is 1 degree equals 2" of pitch, so 3 deg.will equal 6" of pitch. This means if you move the rotor one complete turn it would try to move 6" in the direction of travel, like the threads on a bolt. If the blade is twisted by 3 deg. level the root end and level the hub bar and tourque the bolts. Or if the blade is flat just set the angle you want up to 3 deg. and tourque. It stands to reason to me that the more pitch you have set in the rotors, the more horse power its going to reguire to keep the rotor spinning at operating rrpm,eg 350 to 400 rrpm. So If there is too much pitch in the rotor, and you throtle down for cruse the rotor will slow down and you will sink.
Well How'd I do?
Cheers
Sonny :beer:
PS
This is the protractor head I use.