Who's tinkering with vtol

[Scorpion]

Interested to know if anyone here is tinkering with 1 or 2 seat VTOL-PAV.

Surely with our aussie 'can do' attitude there must be ideas floating around that collectively would get us up on the world leader platform.

The American's have been trying for decades without much success; so if anyone is interested, lets get something started.


Scorpion

[bones]

If my info is right one guy is getting close to test flying one, and it should work cause he has got all the right stuff from what i figure.
He he he he and dont even bother asking who, cause he dont want to be annoyed, more than what he already is people dropping in all the time looking over stuff.

[Mitch]

Carter Copter, Gyrhino and the latest Monarch modified by Jay Carter which leaps 30 40 feet vertically are examples.

[Scorpion]

Thanks Mitch.

Not really what I was after.

I thought there would be a few people here in Aus that would be looking into VTOL as Bones has indicated there is one, but from his reply we will have to wait and see.

[Tex~N~Oz]

I think you'll find that VTOL is a dangerous dig that can go wrong in so many ways. I've studied it a bit and here's my take..

1. Energy has to be either stored in the blades, OR you have to counter the torque at take-off. So effectively you have to build your gyro into a helicopter.. so why bother?
2. Storing energy in the blades is fine but the blades become heavy from all the lead or depleted uranium making them very unresponsive in the turns. This leads to a very stiff, not so fun to fly aircraft. This lag could also result in a stall if care isn't taken.

I believe the next generation of gyros will be VSTOL with pre-rotators that run up to flight speeds, reducing take off distance to just a meter or two..

[MechFx]

I did a story for Gyro News a few years back of a fully operational Hiller type flying platform built in NSW but test flown at the salt lakes in SA. I could get a contact for you if you like ...
cheers
Art

[Scorpion]

It looks like every one is under the impression I was refering to VTOL Gyro's.

I've been doing a lot of design and research into a VTOL single seat fan type aircraft and not using rotors.

We have the engine/s to do the job and I'm building the twin fan lift/thrust units at the moment.

Calculations done so far indicate that it may work. And I did say... "MAY"

Graeme

[joew]

It looks like every one is under the impression I was refering to VTOL Gyro's.

I've been doing a lot of design and research into a VTOL single seat fan type aircraft and not using rotors.

We have the engine/s to do the job and I'm building the twin fan lift/thrust units at the moment.

Calculations done so far indicate that it may work. And I did say... "MAY"

Graeme

Is this what you mean Graeme?


Dragonfly UMR1 Preliminary Specifications and Performance

Overview

In 2004, we began development of our horizontally configured cargo-carrying vehicle, known as Dragonfly. Dragonfly's ability to quickly change its flight options from remote, to unmanned, or manned result in a well rounded vehicle with unlimited potential. With the ability to transport a sizable payload, utilizing a minimal takeoff space, the Dragonfly is definitely a major contender in the VTOL and PAV markets.
http://www.trekaero.com/Dragonfly/Dragonfly_Seat_sm.jpg (http://www.trekaero.com/Dragonfly/Dragonfly_Storage.jpg)Dragonfly Unmanned, Manned, and/or Remote Vehicle (UMR-1)
Engine: TypeOne 177 hp Rotary Engine Specifications: Height6.2 feet (1.9 meters) Width (duct assembly)9.7 feet (3.0 meters) Width (landing gear)3.8 feet (1.2 meters) Length (front to rear)13.1 feet (4.0 meters) Empty Weight490 pounds (222 kilograms) Normal Loaded Weight810 pounds (367 kilograms) Maximum Takeoff Weight1,070 pounds (485 kilograms) Maximum Payload (with full fuel)450 pounds (204 kilograms) Cargo Capacity41.2 cubic feet (1.67 cubic meters) Fuel Capacity20.6 gallons (78 liters) Performance: Maximum Speed235 mph (378 km/h) Cruising Speed170 mph (274 km/h) Loiter Speed85 mph (137 km/h) Hover Ceiling12,900 feet (3.9 meters) Range>575 miles (>925 kilometers) Endurance>3.0 hours Rate of Climb5,500 feet/minute (1,676 meters/minute)

Joew

[Scorpion]

Hi joew,

Yes, the Trekaero Dragonfly.

I have kept an eye on this over many years now and still believe it hasn't flown properly yet.

If a company was so good in designing and building an aircraft with these capabilities you would expect the film documentation to be a very good quality to preserve the first flights for prosperity.

I find all these films are very poor quality and they jump very quickly from one scene to another and you can't really tell if the aircraft is actually flying completly off the ground in sustained flight.

I would like to see it flying about 6M above the ground and travelling the full length of the strip a number of times.

But, as the old saying goes; 'Rome wasn't built in a day'

I would like to see more of our Aussie ingenuity and can do attitude, being applied to designing and building a PAV aircraft here.

Graeme

[MechFx]

just found this, absolutely fantastic !!!!!

Theo Spark: Ok this is cool.... (http://www.theospark.net/2009/01/ok-this-is-cool.html)

VTOL over land may be a problem.....

[joew]

Hi joew,

Yes, the Trekaero Dragonfly.

I have kept an eye on this over many years now and still believe it hasn't flown properly yet.

If a company was so good in designing and building an aircraft with these capabilities you would expect the film documentation to be a very good quality to preserve the first flights for prosperity.

I find all these films are very poor quality and they jump very quickly from one scene to another and you can't really tell if the aircraft is actually flying completly off the ground in sustained flight.

I would like to see it flying about 6M above the ground and travelling the full length of the strip a number of times.

But, as the old saying goes; 'Rome wasn't built in a day'

I would like to see more of our Aussie ingenuity and can do attitude, being applied to designing and building a PAV aircraft here.

Graeme

Hi, Graeme,

I have to agree with you there!

There are a number of problems with your quest.
1. The distances involved! (to get help to build)
2. Opposition to the idea.
3. A person silly enough to do the testing of your project!

I live in Canberra. Where are you located?

Joew

[Scorpion]

Hi joew,

I live at Howard, about a half hour from Hervey Bay and Maryborough in QLD.

As far as testing, I have no problem do that myself. If you design and build any type of aircraft you must have the confidence in the project to do this otherwise why would you put someone else at risk.

The plus side of testing a VTOL/PAV is they are low and slow for most of the lift and transition stages and having enclosed fan type propulsion there are no external propellers/rotors to cause any damage if you drop to the ground.

So a mishap from 1m up is not going to be a problem.

Graeme

[joew]

Sorry Graeme,

Those comments were meant to be tongue in cheek!

Seriously though, to me there appear to be a number of difficulties inherent in the concept that need to be overcome.

At one stage, I was very interested in building a small VTOL craft until I have watched a VTOL, utilising 4 tiltable shrouded fans, being tested in 1966 in Germany. It was very unstable. The pilot was only partially able to control the induced oscillations. He said after the test that there was considerable lag between the control input and actual response of the fans.
The craft landed very hard, a number of times, and although he achieved about 10 metres in height the flight was erratic to say the least.

I have attached a link, which has a number of designs, some of them current, others shelved.Roadables-vtol (http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-vtol.html)

You most probably have viewed the website already, but what I found interesting is that none of the smaller craft has progressed past a slow hover and drifting at about 1/2 metres height, except maybe the PAM 100 B (http://www.roadabletimes.com/roadables-vtol_pam.html), but that had coaxial rotors mounted under the platform where the pilot was, and a couple of thrust-fans on either side.

Are you working on something similar to the "Solotrek XFV" (Exo-Skeletor Flying Vehicle) , or the Springtail ?

I am very interested, especially if the control problems can be ironed out!

Please keep us updated if possible,

Joe W

[joew]

It looks like every one is under the impression I was refering to VTOL Gyro's.

I've been doing a lot of design and research into a VTOL single seat fan type aircraft and not using rotors.

We have the engine/s to do the job and I'm building the twin fan lift/thrust units at the moment.

Calculations done so far indicate that it may work. And I did say... "MAY"

Graeme

Here is a couple of websites that do diesel engines, one of them rotary. The output versus weight ratio looks good and especially the http://www.zoche.de/ Zoche engine. 85kg/150hp and 55kg/70hp. There is almost instantaneous throttle response. You may want to look at the video on the website!

The other site is http://www.rotaryae.com/ At 66kg/110 hp doesn't look too shabby either.

Joe W.

[Scorpion]

The Zoche diesel will be a graet addition to the aviation industry: If they ever get past the development stage. They've been at it now for 10 years and their web site still has the same information as it did back then.

Most times now they don't even rate a mention.

Contact them and see what the response is, I'll bet it's the same as I got at least 6 times over the last 10 years.

There is a V8, 330hp and weighs 96kg and very compact, which looks very interesting and is about to be let loose on the market.

[joew]

The Zoche diesel will be a graet addition to the aviation industry: If they ever get past the development stage. They've been at it now for 10 years and their web site still has the same information as it did back then.

Most times now they don't even rate a mention.

Contact them and see what the response is, I'll bet it's the same as I got at least 6 times over the last 10 years.

There is a V8, 330hp and weighs 96kg and very compact, which looks very interesting and is about to be let loose on the market.


You were right Graeme!!

Here is the reply from Georg Zoche by E-mail:
Dear Sir,


thank you for your e-mail and the interest you express in our engines.

We still are in a concurrent JAR-E and FAR 33 certification procedure; it is considered to expand our current German / U.S. certification program to a European / U.S. certification program. Availability of production engines is still some years away. The 150 and 300 hp engines will be followed by the 70 hp Z0 03A which shares most of its components with the ZO O1A aero-diesel.

In case of further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us or visit our webpage and frequently asked questions list at http://www.zoche.de (http://www.zoche.de/)

Yours Sincerely,


Georg Zoche:blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blah blah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blahblah::blah blah:

Joe W