Would they fly in this country?

[BeefBear]

I noticed that Birdy has made a terrific post on the Yank forum with a number of photo's indicating the type of country that he constantly flys over in his normal duties. I couldn't help wondering if the guys in America would consider operating over the same type of countryside with all their fancy talk?

Me thinks that they'd think twice.

Ted

[Sonnyj]

Thank you Ted for asking that question.
That question comeing from me, a none flyer, would at least* have made a lot of folks mad. But I have wandered the same for a while now.
A lot of the blokes down under acualy use a gyro to make a living while 99.9% of the gyros here or just over gloryfied toys for personal amusment, and I must include myself in that catagory if and when I ever do learn to fly this gyro I am building. Where I live here in the mountains of North Carolina there is a huge amout of tree covered terrain, but there are a few hay fields and pastures, so I figure altitude is my friend if I need to make an emergancy landing. So all I am looking at as a gyro pilot is being able to fly around and take a few pix to share on the forum, and that is good enough for me. Any thing else would only be a pipe dream. I enjoy building the gyro, it's somthing I can do and at the end of the day I can see what I've done. So the question is would I fly in the same place as Birdy? I would have to say OH HELL YEA. Just give me the chance. Could I ever fly a gyro like a Musterer? Probly never.
Just my 2 Quid worth. I hope that's the right kinda money!
Cheers
Sonny

[rotor]

Good on ya Sonny .....

lookin forward to seeing them photo's ..... quids many many years ago (but unfortunately not so many that I can't remember), but bucks now mate


:cheers:

[BeefBear]

Thanks Sonny. I have no doubt that most of your guys can and do fly well. But I see lots of photo's of beautiful country sides, towns/ cities very close by, of highways and roads everywhere, and I wonder if they realise what its like to be in Birdy's position. The dependence of your judement call in every situation, is all day, everyday. To fly at low levels in amongst the trees and anthills chasing cattle, paying a bloody fortune for parts and fuel. She's a different lifestyle out there.

Ted

[Birdy2]

Riteo, I'll bite.
Without sound'n like i'm blown me trumpet, the pix i posted were'nt of the tiger country, it was farely open in comparason.The trip over and back was, unfortunatly, into the sun both ways, and even tho i did a few 'panaramic' shots with the camera, they still weren't real good quality, not worth posting anyway.
One day I'll remember to take the camera when the sun isn't guna be in me eyes[ and mebe git a real camera, this pice o sh1t throws the actuale scene away and you can't see the detale] and i'll post sum pix of the 160 odd km of ranges i'm cruis'n over.
As far as the low alt goes, theres no roads, buggerall level ground and less clear ground, so i figure if the rotax has a sleep i'm guna have as much chance of find'n a spot from 100' as i have from 500'.[ and you can't see buggerall from 500']

Git'n down isn't the concern, its git'n out that'd be the problem.

[Sonnyj]

Well I caint say wot other folks might think, but I can relate to wot your sayin.
I am just an off road mechanic that works out of an F350 Ford truck. I depind on that truck to feed my family the some as Birdy and others depind on their gyro's. If the gyro guits, and you miss a muster that'll cost a man a lot of money, just like my ole truck, if it breaks I don't work till I fix it.
And beleive me when I say, I have to go places in the ole truck that most folks wont even walk. Sometimes I have to be towed by a dozzer just to get to the machine thats not workin. And in these mountains, that can get purty scary.
I have'nt been able to work on the gyro much latly because buisnes is good right now, but it gets slow in the winter. I am just a one man band so I need to "make hay while the sun's a shinin".
When it comes right down toit I reckin I'm kinda like the guys that get to fly around for a livin, because I realy like what I do for a crust aswell.
Here's a couple of pix lookin out my backdoor just to give ya'll an idea.
First shot is early spring, and the second is the same shot in mid summer. And last but not least a pic of me office.
Cheers Cobba's
Sonny
Well I kinda messed that up but you get the picture.

[BeefBear]

Thanks Sonny, I'm glad you have a feeling for what some of our guys go through as a daily grind.

Ted

[Bob]

Welp Beefbear I ain't so polite as Sonny ... i don't think half these guys could drive on a dirt road yet alone know what their doing in a gyro ...
with all their fancy talk and boasting at how many hours they have had in instructions it leves me wondering for sure !
... I have hurd the statement many times over here , never fly over what you can't land on ! ..... and ya know .... I think they actually mean it !
hehehehehehhe a few of the fella's in the north west know what its like to set it down between trees , but only a few ... I have to admit our trees are a might bit bigger than what Birdy shows ..... but that may well be the weeds right ???
in my area here there is pastures spotted throughout the landscape and tall 150ft pine trees everywhere else .... to me I would have no fear flying arround in these mountians because I KNOW the engine is in great shape and it will get me home ...still runnin. if you doubt that you shouldn't go up in the first place !
As Sonny sayz and I agree I think its a bragging point for most of the US pilots nothing more , there is alwayse exceptions to the rule ofcorse .
I think what proves that view point is the laws that the PRA has helped to put into action over the years .... if you don't have the doe ya don't supposed to play ! hehehehehe the part 103 regulation that says the weight can't be over 253lbs is not for the pilots safty by any means .... its for the house he crashes into ..... just because you can't fly arround houses makes no diference you MIGHT !....
so if the postings on the net don't convince you of the incompentance of most us gyro folk the laws that they all agree with that is a good thing..... should ! ....
I used to have Respect for Pilots in general.... now I see the title of Pilot as being something to be leary of ... No offence intended
but thats the way it is .
the time before last I was out with my gyro a fella stopped by and wanted to look at my helicopter .... he started bragging that he was an accomplished pilot and was trying to get his b.f.i. certification ( beginning flight instructor) ... the more I thought of it the more rediculas it was ... here is a guy that is almost to the point that he can TEACH flying .... and he mistook my gyro for a Helicopter ? I had to explain how the thing worked ! so he'ed understand ...
.....
I realise that the world is going into the specialest mode , where everyone will be good in their feild and nothing else but good greef !
its a trend that is scary to me !

In short ( too late!) I think most of the pilots here in the US fly over open aireas ... not wooded I have even hurd them say that they will go arround a patch of woods to get to a point ..... that is not what I'ed call reasonable but that is what their Instructors tell them to do ..... I am totally convinced that half the problem in the U.S.A. IS the instructors ! everyone says how great so and so is , and blah blah.... but the end results are Fear ridden Pilots not confidence !... they push the "fear factor" realy hard here ! trying I suppose to convince idots like me they need instructions from other idiots ! i dunno !

sense gyro flying is considered a HOBBY over here its treeted like one .... to my shrigin... we Play at flying in the US guys !
thats all.....

Would I try to muster cattle with my gyro ? if i was good enough Sure, you bet ! i never had a lick of sense anyway ! hehehehehehe
it sounds like great sport ... I know cattle ... what better way to round them up than with a gyro ! its the perfect application !
but I'ed need many years of flying experience before i could even try it .... your distance judgment has to be spot on !
... mine is only to within an inch or 2 at 60 mph any more ... i'm getting rusty ! ... but thats on the bike ...not a gyro !
lotsa diference there !
....

Perhaps Part of my willingness to do such a thing is thinking that in most gyro crashes the guy walks away .... seriously thats just how it is !
however 50% of the gyro crashes you don't hear about the other 48 % you do and they walk away the 2% left over are fatal crashes....
I'm guessing at these numbers and I'm probly way off .... but if you calculate the number of crashes to the number of Fatalities
it means something like 98 times out of 100 you're going to walk away from it ..... in my book thats darn good odds !
however on the net you get a distorted vew of gyro safty .... everyone knows someone that died in a gyro ... and the fear is intensified by well meaning people , urging others to be carefull ... its more dangerous to drive your car to the store than fly a gyro ! when you calculate the odds ... ( and I have ) dieing in a gyro crash is right up there with being struck with lightning !....
that don't mean its safe , thats just your odds .


Sorry if I ruffeled feathers with this post but I'm intitled to my opinion like anyone else is ... and thats all it is is MY Opinion !

c ya !

Bob.......

[Birdy2]

I got no feathers to ruffle Bob. :google:
I recon the problem is , people rarely land at idle. IOW, an engine out to most people means they gota put it down NOW, where theres no strip to land on, and anything less would mean a crash coz they don't practice landing on 'spots'.[ and Bob, even me trusty 912 will die............. eventualy. :flamed:] The more room they'v got and the more hight they have to aligne the machine to a target the better, and coz their 'target' is usualy a mile long, a spot wouldn't do, so they avoid any areas that don't have a strip a gyro can glide to. :hahano:


Wot a boring way to fly. :(

[BeefBear]

Bob,

I've read the posts of people imploring you to get some instruction, and I've read your replies. BUT this one takes the cake "I am totally convinced that half the problem in the U.S.A. IS the instructors ! everyone says how great so and so is , and blah blah.... but the end results are Fear ridden Pilots not confidence !... they push the "fear factor" realy hard here ! trying I suppose to convince idots like me they need instructions from other idiots !".

I have no doubt that you possess great courage, but the reality is Bob, that you are simply a statistic waiting for the ink to dry. You have already sufferred an incident where you tipped the machine over, because you failed to react to the situtation. Your lack of reaction comes from a lack of knowlege, and knowlege is something you will benefit from in this sport. Is it an anti authority thing you suffer from, or simply that you hate being told something by someone who the sport thnks has enough experience and knowlege to pass on to others?

Bob, I've got no doubt that you will come back with some smart assed comment, but the truth here Bob, is that you are part of the problem not part of the solution to this sport, whilst you maintain this anti instructor mental block. Its people like you Bob, that make it hard for the rest of us to convince the other participants in aviation that we are a credible sport. Its people like you Bob, that insurance companies use as evidence that we should have to pay exhorbitant premiums for insurance if its to be offerred at all. Its people like you Bob, that the regulators just love to see, so they can introduce draconian legislation into the sport. Its people like you Bob, that hinder all the good potential of hard working people within this sport, to promote our public image.

If you want to continue to limit your potential Bob, feel free to continue to ignore the advice given to you by so many others in these forums. You'll probably have steam coming out your ears by now son, these words are offerred with your best interest in mind. Ignore them and be thought a fool, or use them to gain yourself some respect by others in the sport.

Ted

[bones]

F*ck Ted cool off, go and have a :beer: it hopeless to argue with a fool cause they bring you down to their level and then beat you with their varst experience. :focus:

[BeefBear]

Sorry Mark, but if I stand by and say nothing, and watch Bob kill himself, then history will have repeated itself on me. I went through a hell of a time a couple of years ago when a guy I knew well, even flew with him a number of times for business reasons, ended up killing himself in a low level fixed wing accident. At the time we knew better, but didn't say anything. It took me months to get over the guilt feeling after his death.

So this time if Bob manages to become the statistic that I think he will, I can hold my head high and say I tried.

Ted

[Bob]

Ted I've no problem with you ! Your obgliated to your opinion just as I am !

I know WHY you say what your saying .... but have you ever thought of Why I might be fighting so hard to be the
( what you'ed think is ) oppisit ?
I am well aware that the flying comunity has tried long and hard to make Gyros a safe sport ! Great ! Fantastic ! Hurrah ! and all that .
but DO it WITHOUT , and I repete WITHOUT takeing away My freedome .... Instead of that they make it safer by takeiing away freedome !
its Now safer because fewer people play at it .... (at least thats one of the major reasons !)
I have no problem with doing anything safer ! but why make laws that say you can only do it MY way when there is alwayse more than one way to do something ? .... OK granted .... according to the "Stitistics" Fewer gyro pilots have died because of the laws.... this is not a good justification for makeing a LAW .... if you follow that thinking that saveing lives is a good reason for laws then there should be a Law against war, against cars, against guns, against knives, and against rocks, and sticks too !
.... what I'm saying is that we can Make gyros SAFE WITHOUT the stupid laws ! ... we don't need the laws they actually hamper us ! they wind up hurting more than they help in almost every case ! ....
I am convinced that Gyros in the USA would be much MUCH safer without the ultralight law part 103 in pictular.... takeing away the structural integerity of the aircraft ( and make no mistake that is excatly what has happened here ) to fit in under a law is ludicrus !
the LAW is hurting us more than helping us ....
there is no law that says I have to have instructions to fly an ultralight .... yet , but their will be .... just as there is No law that says you have to be certified to dive with an aqualung.... is it wize OFCORSE it is ! I never said it wasn't ! You alwayse ASUME i am dead set against instructions ... I AM NOT..... I simply cannot afford it ! period ! and Even if I could... there are No instructors anywhere near me .
.... so the first thing that anyone says is So travle and get instructions .... I guess they missed the first part ! I CAN'T Afford it !
.... I am not trying to convince anyone to try and fly a gyro without Instructions .... if they can afford them ! if they can't however they are in the same unforgiveing boat I am in then ..... the rest of the FLYING COMUNITY doesn't understand this ! I guess its because they've had so much money for so long it doesn't occure to them there is NO WAY ! ..... the statement if you can afford a gyro you can afford instructions is Silly ! .... i can afford a gyro because i built the bloody thing up from scrap.... if you find an instructor I can build up from scrap I'll take his instructions ! ...... NO REALY !!!!!!

Now You folks in OZ have a Heck of alot less money runnin arround over there than there is over here .... these so called Pilots over here BOUGHT theirs ... they bought their gyro and they bought their knowledge.... and do not understand why I don't do the same thing
.....
So .... let me ask you something
Do you think I should be denied flying an ultralight because I cannot afford the instructions everyone in their great wisdome says I should just run out and get ?
if the answer is yes , your probly one of the majority so get in line .
if the answer is no , then realise I am trying to be as safe as I possably can it after all is MY neck ... I am Not trying to give GYROS a bad name , I am not saying ALL INSTRUCTORS ARE IDIOTS ... I AM NOT saying everyone should follow in my footsteps !

So why is my previous post so rediculas ? because I ignore good advice ? it all comes back to the one thing doesn't it .... I CAN"T AFFORD IT and ya just don't believe me .... hehehehehhe you think I have an athority problem .... I do ! but thats not the reason I don't take instructions .... dare i say it one more time ? I CAN"T AFFORD IT ..... by now maybe it will have sunk in ... i mean it !
now before you start saying if you can afford such and such.... think again and put yourself in my shoes .... we live on arround $1500 a month
and have aprox $1600 a month going out .... out of that negitive cash flow I get to build my gyro and pay the instructor .....
......
now if I could just find some one that would pay me to take instructions that would be great , but I'ed probly have to travle to get them and I can't afford that eather ! .....
....
I have been asked by a few others why I bother to try and explain, just let you guys go in your belief that I'm a renigade and have no respect for anything ... I'm a hazard to all liveing things and what not ....
but to be honnest I do not know why I try so hard to so you guys the error of your ways .... I guess because if i don't no one will !
....
weather I'm a saint or a sinner in your eyes makes no diference , whats important is that the flying comunity get over this fallicy that Instructions is the end all and answer for what Ails it ! .... because if ONE ( me ) can't afford it , there has got to be THOUSANDS out there that are driven off and away from Gyros because of the same thing .... if that is good to you , then you are striveing for an elitest comunity,
an upper crust of Nobel flyers.... got there on the power of the dollar alone.... will there be less gyro related deaths ? almost certainly !
will there be fewer gyros out there ? almost certainly !

Its not a Smart remark as you had hoped for , but again ,thats how it is....
I may well be the Villan here that you fellas are trying so hard to get rid of in the Avaition circles... Seriously ! because I will Fly regardless , one way or another , if it takes my life in the proccess then so be it , I'll die happy ! .....
what a horrid thought eh ? i might put a blimish of the buttox of the gyro comunity .... who cares ! the world will get over it and me in very short order ! ....
Beefbear You and about a dozen others are sure I'll kill myself in the gyro .... I must say Thanks for your confidence ! however You and the others don't know me , and for that i excuse you , but Placeing me as an incompitant person or totally senseless , just because I am Not going to take instructions, is a mistake makeing that sort of judgment call on anyone is not wize , hopefully some day I'll prove to you you were wrong ! ..... and when that day somes I'll tell you so .... but some how I just don't see that worrying you one bit
oh well !

to each his own brother !
thats my 50cents worth .... cuz it is sure more than 2 coppers !
c ya !

Bob........

[Bob]

Bones :
Thanks for calling me a fool , I'ed like to see how well you would do in my shoes !
calling someone a fool because they don't do things the way you think they should , seams rather foolish doesn't it ?
what ever !

C ya !
Bob......

[bones]

Bones :
Thanks for calling me a fool ,* I'ed like to see how well you would do in my shoes !
calling someone a fool because they don't do things the way you think they should , seams rather foolish doesn't it ?
* what ever !

C ya !
Bob......

Bob you've got it all wrong again, you see i dont care what anyone does, but sitting here and reading nearly all the posts that you have put up, it is painfully obvious that you do not value your life as much as i value mine, and dont try to say to someone "I'ed like to see how well you would do in my shoes "when you dont know them, it would probably shock you and alot of people just some of the shit i've been through just in the last couple of years alone.
I'm not judging you by wanting to teach yourself to fly, i did it myself, but its the way you put things on here and other places that make you sound like your this big trooper going off to battle and nobody will follow you. good luck Bob cause your gonna need it.

[Bob]

Good point Bones !
I know half the time ( if I'm lucky ) the postings I make sound weird , what can I say , I'm not very good at people skills ! I try to get my point accross and usually ruffel feathers in the proccess, because I do they lash out at me and I retaliate in self defence ... its enough to make a person stop posting alltogather ! I mean I kile youz Aussies , ya got more horse sense than half the known world , your a scrappy bunch and look for the slightest mistake to jump on someone though ... I dunno , perhaps I do the same thing ..
I don't mean to sound like I'm headding off to war and I'm dismayed that no one will follow me , but I do fail to understand why more folk don't see things my way when it comes to the laws govering gyros , after all it effects you guys too ! but thats nether here nore there.
so I just think I'll shutup , and make sure i have my NICE pills before I try to post ( which i have to admit i havn't been doing , sorry about that ! ) ....
it obviously isn't working for me ... Posting I mean ... I have alot of things I could share with others but my in ability to get along and play nice , keeps it from happening ... I see no reason to suck it up and let others shit all over me just because they can , even though I was raised to be that way ... I'm no coward , in anything , and your deduction that I don't Love life as much as you do is probly a correct one ... perhaps its more like Old goats butting their heads togather than anything else , but its plane silly anymore .
So have fun and fly safe
I'll see ya all later !

Bob.......

[BeefBear]

Bob, I've briefly read your post. Well I got to the " taking away my freedom" bit and then thought you woould never ever understand that aviation is all about following a consistant set of rules, and as such this requires disipline. It has never ever been about a loss of freedom, and to claim it as such is absolute bull.

Bones was right about trying to talk some commonsence in to you. It obviously a waste of time.

Ted

[Bob]

thats RIGHT you can't talk sense into me ...so shut up about it already.... for cripe sake !
follow your ruels like a good Lemming Ted ....

c ya !

Bob.......

[BeefBear]

There's the smart arsed comment that we all knew was coming. Clearly, when confronted by common sence, those who have such a small grasp of the subject at hand, commonly retreat to showing the participants, the clear lack of mental comprehension of the matter under discussion. So lets have a good look at what has been thrown up as a defence.

Statements referencing the "loss of freedom" for an individual when compared to the beneficial outcome for avaitors as a whole, indicates a very selfish narrow minded view. We all fly under a set of rules Bob, whether its pre, during, or post training. We do so, so that an expected outcome should occur in any given circumstance. No rules Bob, leads to incidents, accidents and fatalities. Any way you look at this, Bob, it clearly indicates that you should not be a participant in the sport until you start to think of the others who are involved in this sport, and avaition as a whole.

Bob, earlier in this thread you indicated that you have a negative monthly income. Don't you think you should be concentrating on this issue before you involve yourself in another financial cost? Aviation is an expensive sport, and rarely do you find anyone who is making money out of it, other than those commercial operations and even they are struggling. A negative income severely limits the quality of equipment likely to be used , the servicing ability, training in, and a replacement parts program for your aircraft. You have an accident Bob, and you hurt someone else due to inadequate training, poor quality parts used, an ineffective serviding program, or having shortcuts in your replacement parts program Bob, and there's a good chance you should face crimminal charges. Is any of this getting through to you Bob? In reality son, you are an extreme liability to the sport.

As for the claim that 'we are trying to throw shit over you' Bob, doesn't that take the cake. We are all in this sport so that we can all benefit from the sharing of information, but where someone is clearly heading in the wrong direction, then one can expect to see points being raised suggesting that one needs to change what is happening. If you want to make yourself into a self imposed martyr, feel free to believe Bob. You won't get that sort of recognition from us, a fool possibly, but a martyr... not a flaming chance.

Ted

[Bob]

Thats so very typical , you think i'm backing down and giveing up so you attack with what you think is your strongest stand !
First off Every law out there hinders some and benifits others period there is no getting arround that fact ...
so because of that FACT i say laws are not the right answer .... and you say I'm wrong ?

My financial problems are mine and mine alone Ted I only brought it up so you could see that there are people out in the world that do not have a hellatious income . so then you use it against me useing the excuse that I'm a detriment to scoicity because I'm poor .... good logic ...
why don't we just gather up all the poor people and shoot them all and be done with it ?
there is a few reasons avaition is a expensive sport ... one is the people involved in the sport are so stuck on the Eletest syndrome that they will pay the horrable costs asked for parts and such like To be honnest the most expensive part i have bought yet myself was a $53.00 hunk of metal needed to make my 4' hub bar ! .... where you would go out and pay the $400.00 dollard for the same thing .... who is the smart one there ?
You maintain that i am a lyability to the flying comunity as a whole because of my attitude .... I think for myself , I make my own parts... I stand against needless laws , and I am teaching myself to fly .... if that makes me a Liability Ted then don't you think that perhaps there is something wrong with the avaition comunity as a whole ?
I maintain flying can still be done cheeply and safely.... you are obviously fighting that thought tooth and nail your saying if its cheap its inferior quality ! thats just not so ! your saying the same thing all the other eletiests are saying Ted .... its better because I spent big bucks to get here and I spent big bucks on it ! so there .... thats so absurd its not worth talking about it !

If i'm a Liability to the flying comunity as a whole because of my attitude alone the flying comunity is totally messed up ! attitude is what makes us diferent from one another , its the same thing as personalities .... are you saying then that only one kind of personality should be alowed to fly ? ..... thats what the rest of your beloved Avaition comunity is working towards that is what urks me so !
Your logic is flawed Ted , you make no seperation between what is good for one and what is good for the whole what is good for the whole is rairly good for the one .
makeing the gyro comunity such as the fixed wing comunity of avaition would be a terrable mistake , Why ? where is your freedome there?
I know to fly a fixed wing aircraft you have to have filed a flight plan, needed to pass verious tests, be certified, have your aircraft checked out , the list is almost endless .... is this what you want ? I sure as heck DON'T want it !

already in OZ you have to have the building of your aircraft verified weather or not you plan on just flying arround in the desart or not !
it doesn't matter the use if the craft..... if it flys it has to be .... SIGNED OFF .... isn't that takeing away your freedome ?
Granted it is done in the guize of SAFTY but its still the same results ! safty can come about from other means !
.... and for that matter your concern for my safty is not needed or jack down the street's concern for Bones's safty is not needed !
there is too many people in this world worrying about controling anyone else in some way or form .... its NOT Needed !
I have to ware a helmit when i ride my motorcycle .... that is an infringement on my rights as a person of this state .... but the law says I have to or i am subject to a fine ... it makes no diference what the reason for the law is ... don't you see ? the gyro laws are no diferent ! .... would I ware a helmit anyway ? YES i alwayse do ... but that is totally besides the point ...

Controling others is what our Law system is all about , there are so many laws out now here in the USA that not one person could possably know them all ...yet they say that ignerance of the law is no excuse ! its totally absurd ! yet this is what you are fighting for !
More laws to hamper more peoples freedome , for what reason ? safty ? give me a break !
if you want freedome and safty you are going about it all wrong ....
if you want safty and control of others your going about it the right way !

Once you introduce one set of laws into the gyro comunity they intrench themselves so deeply you cannot get rid of them with out destroying the very system that put them in in the first place .... laws are like that .... and laws begat laws, more laws follow because its easy to make laws , almost impossable to remove them ....

But sense I am a Liability to the gyro comunity as a whole this realy means nothing because its falling on deft ears ! in time you will loose all your freedome and wonder where the heck it went ...but its too late then and you have to live with it .... pay your dues so to speak and play the game the way others mean for it to be played ..... it doesn't matter how you want to play it ....
and this is what you are telling me to do ... play the game like others play it , pay my dues , and don't mention this freedome thing !
... Fat chance bub !
it ain't going to happen !

anyway , I've taken enough of your shit , I won't respond no matter what you say so have a good life ok ?
good bye
Bob.....

[bones]

Sh*t that was that long i couldnt even read it al in one go :beer: but dont you take that from him Teddy boy :poke: :punch: show him what your made of :peace:

Rotor this could have to go to the pub "hick" i mean bar :moon: just thought i'd give it back to you. :giggle:

[rotor]

bones wants a rematch in the bar :beer: by the looks of it :giggle:

I'll stay out of this ... so long as it stays civil and doesn't get to :crazyas: ....

thanks bones .... :lol:

[BeefBear]

Bob, I haven't even started on you, so don't go getting paranoid about my alleged ' strongest point'. All through your last post the underlying thread is you, the individual vs the rest of the community, how you are right and the rest of the community is wrong, and therein lies your major problem. This not wanting to be part of the community because of a fear of losing your feedom, of having to abide with a law, or havig to recognise that in all that you do, you have not just have rights but responcibilities. I hear people like you from time to time always going on about "my rights", but ask them to explain about their responcibilities and all the hot air suddenly leaves them.

Well Bob, the sad bit here is you made the point about your financial position on a public forum. The fact that I used your point as part of my rebuttal of your argument is not a hanging offence. It might well be in your part of the world Bob, but it isn't here. The fact that you want to continue to increase youe expenditure at a time when you have a negative inflow is your 'right' Bob, but its not very financially 'responcible'. As for your suggestion that "we should line all the poor people up and shoot them", that is absolute crap. What ever you are smoking, drinking, injecting, inhaling or snorting has effected your rational on this subject. Perhaps you should consider halving the intake. And Bob, you raised the point about being an 'elitist', again this is another figment of your imagination. If you want to fly by using a cheaper part which has an increased failure potential then you are indeed a liability to the sport. You raised the point about safety, yet fail to come to terms with the fact that to ensure we have safety we need regulations (laws) to meet acceptable standards. These acceptable standards come about with discussions from experienced people involved in the industry, people who understand that safety is not a loss of freedom Bob, but an acceptance of responcibilities.

You are right Bob, I don't make any seperation between what is good for the community and that which is good for an individual. And here's a point for you to consider Bob, I take it that you have traffic lights in your district? Picture this if you can, you're driving down the highway and come across an intersection.... The red light is against you, and the cross flow traffic is moving. I can see you there Bob, getting all steamed up, waffling on about how your rights as an individual is being hampered by a law which says... don't drive through a red light. Seven seconds later Bob, there's a break in the traffic, and you being the freedom fighter that you are, decide to floor the accelerator, wind down the window and shout at the others " Git outta the way dopey" as you blindly sail through the intersection. Lady luck has smiled on you this time Bob, and you've made it through, but back at the intersection, we can see a new version of a streched limo. Wait a second the 2, 500 klms of tires you left there as smoke is clearing and the strech limo turns out to be 5 cars in a bingle. These people ( who incidently Bob are part of the 99.9% of the community who accept that the traffic lights are there for the sole purpose of allowing the interaction of all members of the community as a safety function) are now going to have to pay for your narrow minded 'rights of the individual' attitude.

Any of this starting to sink in Bob????

Go back through you last few posts Bob and count the number of times you infer that "you as an individual are right and the rest of the community are wrong", or 'how you are right and the laws of the community are wrong". I am concerned that you can't seem to realise that its not that everyone is driving the other way Bob, but in reality you the individual are driving against the traffic on a one way street, and that's why I, like most people here think you, with your current attitude, are a liability to the sport.

If you want me to get serious about this debate Bob, just say the word.

Ted

[bones]

Oke doke I feel my work here is done* :chuckel:

[BeefBear]

I have been to the dark side, and visited the ASRA forum. There was my mate Bob, getting stroppy with Pete Barsden re (you guessed it) NO INSTRUCTION. Someone take me outside and flog me, for I couldn't help myself. However there is a light at the end of the tunnell. Our mate Bob was last seen retreating to the other side of the planet in great haste. I really do feel sorry for the sport in the USA, cause dear ol' Bob is going to cause them some grief.

Its one thing to have the courage to complete high risk projects but to ignore the overwhelming adivse from so many as to"getting instruction" is just plain stupidity at best. Its a shame in this case he can't be grounded somehow until he sees the light. Yes people did train themselves in the old days, but with all the advantages of getting some assistance through an instructor these days.... OH stuff it I 'm off to have a bigger rum than normal.

See ya Bob.

Ted