Rotor Blade Management.

[Mitch]

G'Day Gents,

Could some of you more experienced pilots give us the correct procedures for rotor blade management given say a 5 knot wind upon landing and subsequent taxiing to the pull up area.

The hypothetical gyro has a rotor brake.

Please advise what and when with respect to the blades.

(The concern here is with respect to blade flap at any stage whilst taxiing and pulling up.)

Thanks.

Mitch.

[Brian]

Ahhh, a favorite topic of mine and one that will provide as many different answers in relation to the amount of replies you get.:mrhappy


Okay, you say " when landing" so basically when taxying into the wind, I want the rotors to slow down so I push the stick forward to allow the gyro to taxy easily and the rotors start to slow but at the same time, ideally, you do not want the rotors slowing under 80 revs if taxying over rough ground. If your taxyway is smooth, than all is well.With a 5 knot wind, spooling down should not result in blade flap provided stick is held in the direction of the wind untill blades have slowed to a safe speed to catch them. With Patroney blades, you may find that they tend to flap when slowing down to about 30 revs if you do not have the tips under the wind and you may need to re position the gyro to have the wind at the side so that you can get the tips of the blade as far down as possible.

When taxying while slowing down, make sure stick is held in a neutral position [center] or stick slightly into the wind .

Got to go, Rosie has a lovely lunch ready so I'm off !!

Will chat later about what to do in 40 knot winds !!:eek::eek:

[Brian]

Actually, probably not a good idea to say what I do in a 40 knot breeze in case someone tries it and gets it wrong cause it wouldn't be pretty.:blowme:

The Patroney blades, being more flexible, can be interesting to start and stop in really strong breezes.

Questions about how to do something, specially by someone who knows the answers are usually loaded questions but I'm sure Mitch, that in your case you are wanting clarification on something.:)

[russ]

Hope you had a good lunch...........:D

As to blades, yea curly one..........best fit a damn good rotor brake.

[Brian]

Hope you had a good lunch...........:D

As to blades, yea curly one..........best fit a damn good rotor brake.

Excellent lunch Russ !!! and boy, did we have an top dinner followed by an apricot crumble tonight !

Yeah, the lad said he had a rotor brake and in this you have bought up a good point, in less than ideal situations, the quicker you get the blades stopped, the better!!

A good example of this is a year or two ago, I had landed and was just sitting there, relaxing, enjoying being in a place that wasn't bobbing around like a cork in the ocean. Rosie was about 100 yards away, and her line of sight was level with the rotors, as they were spooling down, a something hit, fortunately for me, the rotors had enough revs on them not to flap but I felt a shake. Rosie's description was that she actually saw the rotors ripple, right from the tip at the front to the rearward tip .The ripple was quite severe.

[Mitch]

G'Day Brian,

I am indeed looking for advice and will always be learning.

At different flyins I have observed after both, zero roll and roll on landings, Blokes taxing the gyro with the disc partially presented to the relative airflow (stick not full forward, with disc flat).

When you say Neutral position Brian, do you mean full forward, slightly tilted toward the wind if need be but essentially in the neutral middle forward stick position? OR do you mean ....centered and in the straight and level position...

What I'm getting at is taxiing with 4 or 5 degrees of frontal disc presented to the wind a normal type procedure or should we after landing with a reasonable patch to work with, be getting the stick full forward and neutral unless otherwise required to put the 'edge' of the disc under the oncoming wind? Am I making any sense.
My concern would be that a fly over might be a possibility?????

Just throwing a few ideas around.

Seems to me a lot of our accidents are ground/blade management issues and I'm wanting to know if I have missed out on some training in this area. Lameroo was a dream, lots of take-offs and landings, Cranbourne long circuits much less practice at the bottom end:D:D

Russ....talked to my Mate in the US today, said get a real good pre-rotator and a good brake to go with it.:)

Still looking for how some of you blokes view this and how you operate.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[Waddles]

Gidday Gents,

My two bob's worth on the subject:

My RAFTOR head is set up such that with the stick fully forward, the angle of attack of the disc is -2 deg. My technique in ANY wind after landing is to lower the nose after landing, then use full forward stick whilst taxiing into the wind. I think the theory is that a negative disc angle causes the rotors to slow down quite rapidly, especially in the initial stages. I recall some years ago on the Yank forum that someone said that in-flight, negative disc angle will cause the rotor RPM to decay at a rate of 100 RPM per second. Obviously, the slower rotor speed on the ground and the slower relative airspeed will result in a slower rate of decay.

This is all well and good whilst one is taxiing into, or almost into wind. The problem arises when a turn is necessary and the headwind becomes a crosswind. I use the same technique but tilt the rotors into the wind somewhat. Remember here that we are looking for RELATIVE wind, so that will be the resultant of the forward speed and the wind speed and direction. An average I guess is the easiest way to put it. A wet finger held up in the breeze will give a fair indication of the reltive wind, as will the yaw string in some cases. If you get it wrong, as the blades slow down, the onset of rotor flap will be felt through the stick. At this stage, best to stop and follow the reommended technique for dealing with rotor flap.

If the stick is not fully forward and flapping occurs, there is a real possibility that the rotors will hit the ground in the 7 - 8 oçlock position before one expects it.

Brian's point about maintaining rotor RPM whilst taxiing over rough ground is very valid. The large diameter composite blades have a lot of flex and will "ripple" if not spun up enough over rough ground. This in itself can lead to premature flapping as well.

In a nutshell, maintain rotor RPM whilst taxiing over rough ground, then head into wind and keep the stick full forward until it's possible to slow the rotors manually. If possible, leave the engine running until the rotors are stopped, as people are less likely to approach the gyro if its engine is running.

Start shooting guys !!

Waddles.

[russ]

Agree with the aboves..........as well as

get a good pre rotator, and a damn good rotor brake system.

Can recall an incidence back some....landed into a ripper of headwinds, huge gusts bashing me as well. Getting the blades to stopped was alarming, "plan B'
took off again, then landed downwind, pulled up, kept the stick fully back and let the blades wind down. Battling with those gusts was interesting to say the least.

So ensure you can spin em up and shut em down real quick.

[SamL]

G'Day Gents,

Could some of you more experienced pilots give us the correct procedures for rotor blade management given say a 5 knot wind upon landing and subsequent taxiing to the pull up area.

The hypothetical gyro has a rotor brake.

Please advise what and when with respect to the blades.

(The concern here is with respect to blade flap at any stage whilst taxiing and pulling up.)

Thanks.

Mitch.

Hi Mitch.
I can only tell you what works for me. First I should start off by saying I fly a set of (heavy) Glass blades.
During my landing and flair I typically land tail wheel followed by mains. Once the machine is firmly down I ease the stick forward placing the nose wheel down onto the tarmac. Once down, I keep stick full forward (rotor level)
I will usually sit there until all is under full control and I am happy to commence my taxiing (usually about 3-8 seconds)
During taxiing I always keep the rotor disc tilted into wind. The angle does depend on the wind speed as to much can cause flapping. Since the blades are now normally only coasting, any flapping is easily controlled anyway.
If taxiing for a long period over rough ground I will always use my pre-rotator when taxiing down or cross wind. Up wind I use both wind and pre-rotator.
This is what works for me, and in no way a suggestion of what others should do!!!!

Regards SamL :blahblah:

[Mitch]

G'Day Gents,

Very helpfull fellas.

Now after landing on rough terrain, with the possibility of some distance to taxi and no pre-rotator, the need to keep the centripedal forces in the blades (stiff and supporting their own weight), then is it a reasonable process to keep some back stick to keep the rotors spinning, during this protracted taxiing?

Appreciate all the comments.:)

Mitch

[Waddles]

G'Day Gents,

Very helpfull fellas.

Now after landing on rough terrain, with the possibility of some distance to taxi and no pre-rotator, the need to keep the centripedal forces in the blades (stiff and supporting their own weight), then is it a reasonable process to keep some back stick to keep the rotors spinning, during this protracted taxiing?

Appreciate all the comments.:)

Mitch


Gidday Mitch,

In my opinion, yes. However, you shold always keep an eye on the rotor RPM either by eye (preferred) or Tacho. This will allow you to modulate the amount of back stick applied to keep the rotors spinning enough to maintain their stiffness but not fast enough to cause a problem if a gust in encountered.

The other option is to land as close to the runway exit point as possible so as to minimise the amount of taxiing over rough ground. The inteligent use of your radio here will keep other users aware of your intentions. eg "Cranborne traffic this is Gyro 123, high final runway 36, full stop, mid field touchdown, Cranborne".

With a rotor brake available, once the rotors slow to the stage that you can see them starting to teeter significantly, apply the brake as hard as possible to stop them as soon as possible.

Hope this helps.

Waddles.

[Mitch]

G'Day Al,

Thanks for that...that was were I was headed with all of this.

I had viewed some footage of a gyro and have had emails with a pilot with respect to all of these process'.

Yeah Al, my last post included (landing closer to the pull up spot) but I dropped it to see what would come back.

OK, so it is a permissible way to keep some stiffness in the blades whilst taxiing over rough ground for some distance BUT not ideal....Is that about right???

I need to be very clear on this myself as I am about to get going again, still hand spinning the Patroney's (composite glass blades) and no brake installed as yet. Come on MLS.:D

Thanks Fella's I appreciate the posts.

Cheers,

Mitch

[Mitch]

Just to add to this,

I got blade flap twice at Cooma with the old Bensen Blades.
I got flap once at Lameroo. Bloody windy and thought I'd head out with all the boys on the flight to Lameroo.
I had a chat to Muzza afterwards and he told me I was having the stick back to far for the amount of wind. Next time out, I reduced the amount of back stick during the spinning up of the blades and they then came up a lot smoother.

Today I was able to 'rip' a six minute video from DVD to AVI and I am currently uploading to youtube. I will add a link when the bloody thing finally finishes. Dial up is painfully slow. Blue Emporer Butterfly at Lameroo.
Shows how quick a set of Patroney's will hand spin, with 5 -10 knots.

Thanks again Fellas.

Mitch.

[Waddles]

Mitch,

You definitely need stiff blades whilst taxiing over rough ground. With rotors in the vicinity of 29'diameter, you'll need around 80 to 100 RPM. With your blades probably 60 would be enough.

In gusty conditions with no pre-rotator, the best option would be to stop the rotors completly and push the gyro home over the rough ground.

Waddles.

[Mitch]

G'Day Al,

Yep I realise I need to keep em spinning.

Got the youtube vid up.

YouTube - Blue Emporer Butterfly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRQO7HD50-U)

Cheers,

Mitch;)

[Brian]

Hi Mitch, sorry I havent got back on this topic as been busy getting a new water set up.

I did have a typo where I said 'neutral stick'..should have read, full forward but make sure stick is not one side or the other unless you have x wind, where you need stick into wind.

If I have to taxy over rough ground, I keep the rotors above 100 revs if possible, usually I will land exactly where I need to pull up to alleviate the taxying bit but thats not always possible eg Lameroo.

Good advice is that flight is not finished until rotors are stopped !!
Slow turning rotors do not provide any breaking ability so make sure you can pull up whenever taxying.

When getting the blades up whether by hand or pre rotor, get them going as fast as possible before letting stick back, particularly with a strong breeze.Once they are going as fast as you can get them, let the stick back slowly and carefully, you have to let the stick back far enough to get rotors going faster but not too far or flap may result, it can be a slow process in really strong winds so be patient, as soon as you feel the first bit of movement in the stick, push it full forward till all flapping stops, then try again.


Even a slow turning rotor hitting a solid object will result in new rotors !

Allan's and Sam's advice is spot on.

[Mitch]

G'Day Brian,

Top shelf info all round, thanks.

This info will help me, Tassie gets a few windy months ahead and my experience with flap at Lameroo, coupled to Muzza's advice there and the on this thread......muchly appreciated.:)

Mitch.

[SamL]

G'Day Brian,

Top shelf info all round, thanks.

This info will help me, Tassie gets a few windy months ahead and my experience with flap at Lameroo, coupled to Muzza's advice there and the on this thread......muchly appreciated.:)

Mitch.

Just one more comment Mitch. As you have probably already realised, your new Patroneys are very heavy and will require you to be more patiant during spinup. The lighter blades can be rushed and will accellerate much more quickly. I bet there was a huge difference between these new blades and your old wooden Bensens.:blink:

Regards SamL.

[Brian]

Also, the bigger the diameter of the blade, the longer it takes to get them going [usually]

Another point is that when you have got them started [by hand or pre rotator] and are taxying to get them going faster, I have the stick off the back stop [an inch or so]so that I can feel the first little knock of blade flap.It only takes a bit of a gust to upset the apple cart.

[Mitch]

Great info fellas.;)
Thanks again for the input.

Busting my hump to get airbourne.

Mitch.

[Birdy2]

Gday blokes, sorry iv been gon for a bit, i couldnt figure how to git bac on after rotor changed things last time. [good thing i marryed a smart woman, she got me back on. :)]

looks like its pretty well covered Mitch.

Only a coupla points.
Waddles touched on the air over the rotor as a break thing.
This is true, to a point.
As you know, the wasa hasa rotor break [ thanc crist] but i dont NEED it. Wen iv landed [ 0 roll] i hold the stick forward and streight away do a 180* to put its ass into the wind. Now, with the stick locked forward ill shut down and hop out. This has the machine resting on the tail wheel. Wotever the disc's AOA is with the stick locked and the machine on the tail wheel, [ bout 5-8* nose down], i can let the blades slow to bout 20rpm before theyll touch the stops, even then they are only 'touchn' the stops. Iv dun this in howling winds and its the same.
IOW, a neg AOA on the disc of between 3 and 6 degrees means 0 lift. 0 lift means no flapn, no matter how strong the wind is.
Relitive blade AS below 30-20 rrpm dont seem to matter, coz at that speed, the teetering is slow n gentle, and they are easy to stop by hand.
Sum people mistakenly think that a blade with 0 AOA is producing 0 lift. Not so. Depending on the [ayssimetrical] foil's shape, it needs to be a little neg to produce 0 lift.
If you hold the blades at a neg AOA of greater than 0 lift, theyll actualy be autorotating, so they wont slow past a certain rrpm.

The other point, wen i gota taxi, fast or slow, i govern everythn with stick position.
If im taxing UW, after iv prespun, bring the engine up to taxying rpm and govern ground speed with stick position. [ faster-forward, slower- back stick] .
Same with DW, only the taxi engine rpm will be lower.
If the tailwind is faster than i wana taxi, then ill hold the stick full forward and govern the GS with breaks.


Wen im prespin'n in a very strong wind, ill be facing it at bout 45* [ wind approchn at 45* to me right.] with the stick full forward AND to the right. [ thisll prevent any lift generated by the 0 AOA thingy.]
Once they are up to bout 30% flyn rpm, gently let the machine roll forward and turn right into the wind, easing the stick to back n center as you go.
And with this sorta wind, its all virtical from there. :)

Landing is same, in reverse.[obviosly]
Land, no roll, stick full forward, let machine creep round to the left as you ease the stick to the right.
If you have a stick lock, set it so's the locked position has the disc sitn at a little right side down. [3-6*]
DONT turn 180 after touchdown, and have the stick fullforward, coz theyll still flap at a fairly high rpm. If you have the stick fullback, theyll auto and flap like crazy.


Sorry bout the ramblings, this broken wrist is given me the sh1ts. :(
ill p1ssoff now.:D

[Mitch]

Thanks Birdy.

Heard you had a broken hand, hope it mends up proper. You did go and get it professionally set, didn't you?:p Look after yourself.:D

Have Eric call me if he is about.

Cheers,

Mitch.

[Birdy2]

Russ, ol mate, iv been pondern this comment for a few days;

get a good pre rotator, and a damn good rotor brake system.

Can recall an incidence back some....landed into a ripper of headwinds, huge gusts bashing me as well. Getting the blades to stopped was alarming, "plan B'
took off again, then landed downwind, pulled up, kept the stick fully back and let the blades wind down. Battling with those gusts was interesting to say the least.

So ensure you can spin em up and shut em down real quick.

I cant make head or tail of it, and iv pulled up in sum pretty sh1tty wind too.:confused:

[russ]

http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/cid:000301c7f44f$c3ac2120$0100007f@COOK1 Was me tandem, no stick lock, no prerotator, no rotorbrake......[ last 2 off machine at the time ]

Monsoon time.........strong winds with swerling blasts. Strip had tall timbers both sides.

Landed and as blades wound down o so slow, the swerling gusts were hinging em bad, took off, relanded with tail wind, was then able to lay blades back somewhat as blades slowed down, then let stick go [ no stick lock, so stick would lay full back ] then able to climb on rear seat and hand slow / stop blades.

So having a damn good brakeing system would have made life easier, as also having a good prespinner.
The quicker you can crank em up.........and the quicker you can stop em can lessen some grief.

Your techneek of tippin em sideways into the wind with the swerling gusts about like that day, i think may well get you into some strife.

Laying the disk flat, and cranking on a good brake is my preferred option.

[Birdy2]

Just curious, how fast was the ground speed wen you landed?.:rolleyes:
Why didnt you just do a 180 on the ground?

So having a damn good brakeing system would have made life easier, as also having a good prespinner.
The quicker you can crank em up.........and the quicker you can stop em can lessen some grief.
Breaks are like spinners, they dont do anythn for blade managment.
EVERYONE, from student to CFIs should know how to startup, stop blades in any air, without the aid of breaks n spinners.
And if its dun proper, theres no flapn.

Your techneek of tippin em sideways into the wind with the swerling gusts about like that day, i think may well get you into some strife.
Wot?
You think we dont have trees ere, or mountains?

Laying the disk flat, and cranking on a good brake is my preferred option.
Maybe, but its not the correct way, and you be'n an instructer should know better.
Besides, blades will hing more seveirly with the disc flat than they will if they are held proper, no matter how good your break is.

[Brian]

You're not the only one confused Birdy with Russ's technique, I have and do land downwind but on a day when its blowing a gale :confused:???......when you can do as Birdy says and just do a 180 degree turn!!

RUSS, explain that one again.

You have probably flown a few Patroney blades Birdy but the bigger diameter Patroneys can be near impossible to start without a pre rotor .Even my 27 ft 6 's are heavy enough to get going. I know, I'm getting to be a bit of a sook.:D:D

[Graeme]

I know, I'm getting to be a bit of a sook.:D:D

A sook maybe Brian, but at least your not limp wristed like one bloke that we all know. ( They say isolation will do that to you).:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Graeme.
I have strong wrists, shame about the rest of me.

[russ]

http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/cid:000301c7f4e7$11ed8530$0100007f@COOK1
Tandem has soft coupled stearing [ springs ] ......useable strip width........skinny, too skinny to do a 180 on the ground unless you hop out and lift the nose and manually carry it around.......that means stick drops to full back [ no stick lock ] while you is out of the cockpit.........you work out the rest. [ just remember we is talking about a big long tandem here, not some p*ssfart single seater that you could turn ona dime ] Soft coupled stearing has this drawback, half decent ground turns are near impossible.........but i like the positives of soft coupled stearing more better. But that's my view, and that's what counts..........to me. If your view differs.....so be it.

[Brian]

Ahhh, I see, thanks Russ for that info.

My eyes start to water a little thinking about that downwind landing, say a 30 knot breeze plus approx 10 knots touchdown [assuming big 2 seater] and while I have never tried a 30 knot down wind landing, I can only assume that some forward speed could be needed to keep a things straight. So, a 40 knot touchdown, that should keep the pilot on their toes !

Definitely need a strip thats not dusty as you wouldnt be able to see for a few moments:eek::eek:

[russ]

Laying the disk flat, and cranking on a good brake is my preferred option.
Maybe, but its not the correct way, and you be'n an instructer should know better.
Besides, blades will hing more seveirly with the disc flat than they will if they are held proper, no matter how good your break is.


you got areal selective memory dave........you bein an instructor signed off a student recently that "totalled" his machine within weeks, and it was your fault, coz you failed to train him proper with all the ins and outs of low leval perils............nice one there buddy.
Would compare my training to yours any day matey, and i'm yet to fail a student like you just did. Gimey a call, will give you some pointers on proper training.........:censored::censored:

[Birdy2]

Hmmmmm, this thread could get interestn.:Bat1:
Russ, you dic wad, get your facts streight. :rolleyes:
Anatha case of your spies taken you for a ride. Mate, one day youll wake up.:bored:
Gimey a call, will give you some pointers on proper training.........
Sorry russ, youd be the last id ring for advice, on anythn.
You just keep f$#@@n it up dont you. Your ego is getn the better of you. And to top it off, you want to be on the ASRA bord. Wot a joke your proven yourself to be.:throwup:

And;
just remember we is talking about a big long tandem here, not some p*ssfart single seater that you could turn ona dime ]
Just how small is the turn circule of a RAF russ??
A frign 12E grader hasa smaller turn than a RAF.

Sorry, i dont buy it, i think youv got a problem of not letn the truth git in the way of good dribble.
So, anyone readn this, NEVER land down wind.
I know russ is an instructer and he said its the best way to do it, but it aint.

Anyhow, wot was your touchdown speed during this fanciful DW stuffup Russ?

[Drifter]

That's got you too out of the way fro the next 24 hours..... hopefully.:chainsaw:

[bones]

Hey Peg fetch me a bottle of rum please this could take awhile, and some of those pop corn stuff...

[russ]

http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/cid:000301c7f530$27d4a0b0$0100007f@COOK1 Geez dave, you doin it again............taking comments out of context, you getting a habit of doing this, time and time again.
Where in the hell did i say "this is the way to do it"............what i said was "this was the way i did it", and why i did it.

And again you is dribblin your cr*p and calling folks liars..........i'm more n more feeling pity towards you......you got a problem that's for sure.
Once again you reference me to me spies..........you got that wrong too.....once again, just reading your cr*p posting of the event, and your pathetic attempt to "explain" the whys..........didn't fool me buddy..........you stuffed up, it's that clear.You done a lousy job of "instructing".

As to your statement NEVER land downwind................unreal, yip shows your lack of training skills once again. Please gimey a call, you need some training, dead set. Sorry that my style p*ssis you off a tad, but i teach taking off....landin....upwind, downwind, X wind. Seems to work just a treat, yet to fail. To idiot me, it's better that way,rather than they teach themselves when the chips are down on a bad hair day.

Now to me old tandem and it's capabilities..........you doin it again, making assumptions based on pure cr*p. You've never seen it, therefore never flown the thing, so comparing it to .....whatever.........means jack sh*t........again.

Now to me putting me hand up for asra, yea, i was in the fray to "out" the goings on within, [ now released to all members ] all through that saga you was again driblin ya sh*t.........calling me spies liars, tellin me and others to ask around, get the truth bla bla bla.........you was like a cracked record................hey what dick^%$#...........you was again wrong there too. Mind you, if the truth bit you in the arse, you would still be blabbin ........liars etc etc etc.
So now we have a changing of the guard, so to speak, and this brown duck is prepared to stand up.................if your not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. I assure you the public bun fight was not enjoyed by this member, but the antics of others forced this method.

So now p*ss off.........go play in ya sand pit..........you're boring me now. [ F#%^&* hipocrit ] BTW.....sorry for offendin ya thin skin.....Ol mate.

[niquenaque]

Fight! Fight!.,..http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/images/smilies/chainsaw.gif

[marko66]

Hey Bones

You better lay of the popcorn mate, and have water with the rum or you'll end up my size mate :D :mrhappy:beer:

Regards Mark

[Birdy2]

Knew this was go'n to git better.:)

Where in the hell did i say "this is the way to do it"............what i said was "this was the way i did it", and why i did it.
Your [suposed to be] an instructer Russ, and that means setn the example.
Its one thing to say in the pub that this is wot your recon you do, but to answer a blokes querie on a public forum where lotsa people who just mite not Know any better will be readn, is blatently irrisponsable.
Newbes mite just think that 'he's an instructer, he should know".


you got that wrong too
Did i??

you stuffed up, it's that clear.You done a lousy job of "instructing".
Did I???
Russ, sak the spie who told you all this crap before you dig the hole too deep.:D [ or is it just anather of your assumptions?]:rolleyes:

and your pathetic attempt to "explain" the whys
Yeh, like youd know.:D

Now to me old tandem and it's capabilities..........you doin it again, making assumptions based on pure cr*p.
You said it didnt turn too tight, and you never had enuf room to do a 180, and said its not like a pissy little single seat.
My reference to the RAF was to hint to you that i know wot its like to land on narrow roads in a machine that has a huge turn.
Apples n apples.

you was again wrong there too
Zat rite?!?!
Where did i ever say there was nuthn go'n on?

I assure you the public bun fight was not enjoyed by this member, but the antics of others forced this method.
??????????
This sentance dont belong in russ's post.
It makes sence n i agree with it, wots go'n on??:confused:

So now p*ss off.........go play in ya sand pit
One thing i can garantee you russ, you wouldnt have the balls to say that to me if i was standn in front of you.

Oh, i forgot to ask [ agin], wot was your touchdown speed on that DWer. its a ligit question BTW.

I realy hope to meet this clown one day.:chuckel:

[Mitch]

G'Day Gents,

Good to see some passionate debate occurring here, with exchange of operating processes and terms of endearment.:hug:

I need this sorted out by Monday 'boys', I'm going flyin!;)

Thanks for everyones input. Most appreciated.

Mitch.

[Birdy2]

Sorry to have upset wot shoulda been an educational thread bout the most important aspect of gyro flyn Mitch.:mad:

But it tends to happen wenever i ask an egotistical to explain sumthn, they just go off ona tangent, like this suposed student of mine.:D
They wont answer simple questions.
Questions that need to be asked concidern who could be readn.

But at least the fact that they dont answer the question will leave dout in the mind of readers, and hopefuly theyll disregard his comments.

Afterall, wot would a SCG know bout blade management?:confused:

get out there and stir up the air Mitch.:)

[Mitch]

G'Day Birdy and All,

Needless to say, I and other newbies will not be attempting these seriously windy conditions but good to see what needs to be done in a big blow.:'(

I guess I'll measure myself against the conditions at Lameroo, that was about as much wind as I'd handled up to date.

Birdy, did you ask the big fella to call me?

Organised for Monday out at Cranbourne. Elise has given me Monday through Thursday this week. Hope the weather is kind.:D

Thanks fellas.

Mitch.

[Birdy2]

sorry mitch, i forgot.:rolleyes:
he never made it.
got within 4 hours of ere, got proper crook n turned back.
needless to say he's pretty p1ssedoff.:anger:

[Brian]

G'Day Birdy and All,

Needless to say, I and other newbies will not be attempting these seriously windy conditions but good to see what needs to be done in a big blow.:'(

I guess I'll measure myself against the conditions at Lameroo, that was about as much wind as I'd handled up to date.



Thanks fellas.

Mitch.

Always a good idea to work into tougher conditions, slow and easy does it. If you feel uncomfortable, back off or wait till you feel at ease. Can take a few hours up to get comfortable with windy conditions. There are many types of wind, all have their plusses and minusses, some can be really turbulent and other's smooth as silk.
but the important part, is not to feel like you got to fly in it because Birdy or me are out there doing 10 hours and enjoying it.

[Birdy2]

Just back to topic and ignorn the 'getn blood from a stone russ' thing for a sec, yeh, that breez at Lam on sundy arvo was abit gusty, and woulda bin interesting for anyone with any douts. [altho its good for playn in :)]
But to simplify the thinkn prosess wen your tryn to manage rotors in strong gusting wind, always train your mind on the advancing blades AOA.
Keepn it @ -4 degrees will stop any wild flapn.
Obviosly they will still hinge abit, but if you hold it at the right AOA, they wont even touch the stops, letalone flap.
Remembern the advancn blade isnt always to the right, like ina xwind or tail wind. Adjust with the stick the advancing blades AOA whereever it is in the 360*
Above the 0 lift AOA and itll rise up n touch the stops, too far neg and itll dip and touch.
A lock set at 4* down either side, then hand starting with the wind aprochn from that side would do wunders for blade managment.
Same for patn um down.

BTW, i cant for the life of me understand why stick locks arnt mandatory on gyros, specialy ones with no break or spinner.:confused:
They weigh nuthn and if built proper, are better n sliced bread. [ good for emergency quick p1ss stops:p]
Not only for conveniance and ease of managment, but also for safty.
Helichoppers have them[collective lock], and they got symetrical blades.

anatha BTW, blades pushn the stick wen they are touchn the teeter stoppers wont do any damage, even with reasonable countering force by the pilot, coz you dont have buggerall leaverage on the torque tube to do any damage.[ solong as you dont put y foot on it:rolleyes:]
Its wen the blades hinge too much, and push the stick/head to the roll/pitch stops on the head that sum serious stress can be put on hub bar n straps.
if your holdn the stick into the wind, this gives the blades much more room to move [teeter degrees + head movement] before they hit the head stops.

Ill go now and do sum SCGn while i wate for Russ's love letter. ;)


but the important part, is not to feel like you got to fly in it because Birdy or me are out there doing 10 hours and enjoying it.
Good line Brian.
It took me a coupla years to get over the phobia i had bout wind after those terrifyn 2 years in that $#@% trike.
But by gently workn into worse n worse conditions,[ and occasionaly get caught init] iv found theres nuthn mum can throw at me now, coz the 'MACHINE' can handle it. [ and i can now too :)].

[Birdy2]

I thought as much.:rolleyes:
Russ has been caught out agin, and he's lyn low, hopen ill forget him.:D
Fat chance russ.:Bat1:

But just to set the record streight, i wasnt 'the lads' instructer who russ reconed stuffed up so badly.
Iv never don any instructing.

So, see'n as russ was real critical of this blokes instructer, should i pass this;
you got areal selective memory dave........you bein an instructor signed off a student recently that "totalled" his machine within weeks, and it was your fault, coz you failed to train him proper with all the ins and outs of low leval perils............nice one there buddy.
Would compare my training to yours any day matey, and i'm yet to fail a student like you just did. Gimey a call, will give you some pointers on proper training.........

and this;

And again you is dribblin your cr*p and calling folks liars..........i'm more n more feeling pity towards you......you got a problem that's for sure.
Once again you reference me to me spies..........you got that wrong too.....once again, just reading your cr*p posting of the event, and your pathetic attempt to "explain" the whys..........didn't fool me buddy..........you stuffed up, it's that clear.You done a lousy job of "instructing".

and this;

unreal, yip shows your lack of training skills once again. Please gimey a call, you need some training, dead set. Sorry that my style p*ssis you off a tad, but i teach taking off....landin....upwind, downwind, X wind. Seems to work just a treat, yet to fail. To idiot me, it's better that way,rather than they teach themselves when the chips are down on a bad hair day.
on to his ACTUAL instructer??

Im sure he'd be real keen to get sum expert tips from a ledgend like russ.
Mate, i dare russ to tell this bloke wot he's stuffed up. [ but thatll never happen, he dont even have the balls to accept a mistake, never mind face a real instructer.]

Yep, russ has a huge chip on his shoulder orrite.:(

Y mite wana consider all this "im never rong" attitude wen it comes time to vote for the bored.

Im voten for russ.;)
Comon russ, you gota face critisism if you wana be on the bored, show us your the man you think you are.:D

[Mitch]

I need to know the magic number to dial into my Cyclometer....Rotor Tach.

Mitch.

[niquenaque]

I need to know the magic number to dial into my Cyclometer....Rotor Tach.

Mitch.


1666 if you set for kmh

Cheers,

Nick.

[Mitch]

Thanks Nick,

Replacing the old one which disappeared off the instrument panel at Lameroo. Reckon it got knocked out of it's 'snap & lock' position, so this time I might add some GLUE!

Cheers,

Mitch.

[niquenaque]

small cable ties are good..

[Birdy2]

Oi, Russ, i know you been lurkn mate.
You never answered me question before.

ie;
So, see'n as russ was real critical of this blokes instructer, should i pass this...........................................on to his ACTUAL instructer??

[disco]

Nasty every whichway.

[Birdy2]

Nasty????
Its a ligit question.
He reconed the instructers lousy methods was the cause of the lad totaling the machine, so i think Russ should be chatn to this instructer.
You dont think so?:blowme:

Sum of you people have me scratchn me head at times.:confused:

[russ]

http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/cid:000301c7fbed$af179e10$0100007f@COOK1 Christ............had it all typed up, almost.........then me sat connection dropped out. Ok.......short version

Instructing ain't easy, never said it was, i know of no instructor up to speed with the perils of low level flying. Yet we have a situation of teaching basic flying to a chap that we know is about to enter into a "danger zone"
All these yrs, we have got away with it by "good luck" mainly. Newbie is taught basic safe flying, then off he goes to "self teach"
My own message to those flyers was in part..........maintain a "buffer" height and airspeed at all times.
To date it has worked.
I ALWAYS teach em landing / takeoffs no matter what wind directions ........with it, into it. [ so shoot me ]

Now this might just get me buddy dave goin...........as to teaching them the ins and outs, like "stall region........driving region......drivin region....
area of reverse flow........retreating blade stall"..........and a whole lot more of juicy stuff...........nar, we don't go there. [ shoot me again ]
Why...............coz they just want to fly em, bugger the nitty gritty stuff. [ most of em anyway ]
Ask any guy here what is the reasons for exhaust back pressure in their car engine...........99 percent wouldn't know.....or care.......just show me how to drive the mongrel
Ask most guys, how do you know your engine is delivering full power..........answer, it feels right, tacko is revin right.
Explain to em inches of mercury and manifold pressures etc etc.................sh*t, fair go, didn't know that, but i'll stick with the feel and tacko way.
Christ, now i'm driblin..............i'm done.

[Birdy2]

Well, i agree with 100 poocent of your last post Russ.
I dout theres anyone who would know bout ALL the hazards up there, and no one could reasonably expect anyone to.
Hell, ask any high time mustern bloke the last time he learned sumthn new. You can be sure he'd say 'yesterday'.

And just for a sample of the rearity of the strength of the burst he hit, its rearer than rotor ice. In my time flyn, iv had ice once badly, twice iv felt the onset, and iv only ever been forced to the ground once by one of these critters. So its not like your go'n to hit the ground every year.
And your rite Russ, any more information than needed at the time will only muddy the mind. Students should be informed on a 'need to know' basis.
most students wont need to know.

But my point still stands.
You said i stuffed up with my instruction, thats why he crashed.
But i didnt do the instruction, so would you like me to pass on your concerns to the lads instructer?

[russ]

Maaate.........do as you see fit, i don't give a rats...

Anything that helps you / me / all of us.....stay safe, has my vote.

A little more advice for you..............vote liberals, coz we've never had it so good. Weeez all made heaps of bucks over the last 10 yrs, vote in labour, we is DOOOOMED.:D

[Birdy2]

His name is Kevin Treager Russ, im sure youv heard of him.

[russ]

http://www.rotorcraft.com.au/cid:000d01c7fca5$13fbf030$0100007f@COOK1 You're missing me main point here. My original comments re "lousy training" was directed at you, as reading way back you referenced something like....." the guy was a natural early in the piece, smooth balanced turns etc etc "
From that comment i assumed you was his trainer, hence you failed him coz you knew of the perils etc etc.
Ok, so it now turns out you was not involved in any training, fair enough.
Now proceeding further along here, i know of no trainer up to speed with low leval perils, and gyros........except a small handfull of "station flyers"
Whether his trainer was kevin.......russ.....tom ....dick....or harry...........no trainer to my knowledge is truly competant at low leval stuff.
All these yrs we have got through this problem by shear good luck as every station guy was after basic training.........self tought.
Every flyer is self tought after basic training.........but the recreational flyer is only close to the ground at lift off and landing times. The occassional beatup around a couple of trees etc etc, is nothin like "workin around trees etc etc" and all the distractions that come with the job at hand.
As to an answer.........do we continue the same way and go with "luck" or do we......????????? sometime in the not to distant future, genuine working gyros will be travelling about Oz earning the bucks, this is when gyros will be well and truly under the microscope, coz the helo boys will be hurting.
One idea of mine was guys that want to go workin gyros, get the basic stuff done, get some hrs solo, then pack up their gyro and spend XXXhrs working side by side with a competant flyer.......maybe 2...3 weeks. Mate, any ideas to achieve zero incidences would be good readin, so folks........let rip
Finally.........whenever the urge to agree with me comes over you, take a cold shower real quick, me n you bangin heads helps to keep me blood presure high..........and that's how i like it.

[Gyrodes]

Russ,
One thing I came to understand about 40 odd years ago was to NEVER EVER assum anything.
See mate you degraded yourself respect by not giving Birdy a call and finding out the facts first. I belive you both have a lot to contribute to the Gyro comunity.
Please don't go down the road that has happened on the forums in the past.
Thanks for the above post, now we know you are human:D.
Have a good day :cheers: Des

[Birdy2]

You're missing me main point here.
And your avoiding mine Russ.:rolleyes:
My point is, you said the lad crashed coz of lousy instruction.
It turned out that i wasnt the instructer. Dose this mean the instructer is no longer at fault?
You said you could give me advice on how to avoid this happen'n in the future, wouldnt this apply equaly to the ACTUAL instructer, or was it just coz you thought it was me, and you thought you had sumthn on me, so you thought youd take a cheap shot, below the belt?:fingers:
[ you gota do better n that to catch me out Russy mate. :D]

hence you failed him coz you knew of the perils etc etc.
This i do accept responcability for.:(
As i said in the opening post, ; I dont know if its fate or sumthn, but as i drove home from my own mustern job [ after striken a few of these little basterds] i remember thinkn to meself, 'id better ring ol mate tnite and hava yarn bout these before he hits one.'
Too late of course coz wen i got home, Liz said ### just rang, and he's got bad news.
But, as iv also stated, information over load can be worse than no information.
You said yourself Russ," how much do you tell them."
Most of this 'flyn by feel' stuff is not comprehendable for sumone just startn out. They dont have a feel, and so they dont know wot your ramblen on about wen you say sumthn like "wen you feel......."
They need sum airtime, taken it easy, getn the feel, then they are ready to comprehend the little details.
And like iv also said, he got caught out coz of ignorance. ignorance of one of many, extreamly raere but dangerous gremlins waitn for us down low.
He wasnt taken any unnessisary risks. He was at bout 200', plenty of room for that machine and sumone with 100 hours init.
He was simply VERY unlucky to hit one that strong at that time in his flyn life. He probably would not hit anatha in the next coupla thousand hours.

[ mind you, i only failed him by a matter of hours, and im still kickn meself for it.]

no trainer to my knowledge is truly competant at low leval stuff....
do we continue the same way and go with "luck" or do we......?????????
ASRA is workn to correct this hickup.

get the basic stuff done, get some hrs solo, then pack up their gyro and spend XXXhrs working side by side with a competant flyer.......maybe 2...3 weeks.
That was our plan Russ.
Wen he left here, we agreed that he do as much puttn round as he can, without pushn it, for a coupla munths, then i was go'n to putt over the 700KM to his joint and help out with a big, [ normaly a 2 chopper] job. Then he was go'n to follow me home [ anatha 700km] to return the favor here. All up, probably 50- 80 odd hours worth.
By then he would have a good feel and we can talk turkey.
I was only bout a week away from headn over.
But it never turned out that way did it?:mad:
So shoot me.:blahblah:

Finally.........whenever the urge to agree with me comes over you, take a cold shower real quick, me n you bangin heads helps to keep me blood presure high..........and that's how i like it.
I agree Russ, i recon its healthy for everyone, solong as we keep it civil, and understandable for anyone who bothers to read it.

[add]

can i ask anyone how to work out which way is down wind or into the wind when flying and have time to decide before landing. say just flown to a strip with a crappy broken wind sock or to the beach with no sock. at the moment i fly in close and try to have a look at the trees if its blowing bad enough to worry. or just put it down thinking it could be either way if i know its not blowing bad enough to cause me any problems. dont cut me to pieces its a ligit question.

[russ]

add.............you're doin the right thing, at least tryin to work it out etc. Mate if it were blowin bad enough to cause concerns you would pick it easy, other wise just plonk it down. [ Oops.........maybe i should'nt have said that ];)

[Birdy2]

Trees n grass are the most reliable windsocks.
Dust n bits of trees are good for stronger winds.
but if your land sumwhere where theres no veg, then a low steady 360 turn will give you a good indication.

[Mitch]

Smoke from farm house chimneys and water in the dams give indications as to wind direction too.

[Gyrodes]

Yaw indicator or S&L and let the rudder input off and you will tend to nose into the wind if ya machine is set up right in the first place :confused:.
Well that is what the grey matter seems to remember being taught a couple of hundred days a go when I was learnin from my Instructor. :blahblah:
:cheers: Des

[niquenaque]

Another cue is the ground speed, fly the legs of the compass and see which one gives you the greatest ground speed if there are no other obvious indicators.

Pick two straight geographical pointers, eg, long fence line / road / shore line / power line{carefull!!!], see how long it takes to fly from one end to the other, then turn around and go back the other way, time for shortest leg is down wind, longest time is up wind.. which side you drift to gives you a better sense of the cross component relative to the fence, and you will drift to the one side if the wind is constant, see how much rudder you have to input to correct for the drift if you fly directly along the fence. You then calculate and compensate. Note the calculated direction on your compass and plan your best approach to the airstrip based on this.

Hope this helps,

Nick.

[mceagle]

Around most farms there is usually a windmill or dunlite and they can be good indicators.
A gyro should always fly with the drift flag straight, with the feet off the rudder pedals. If you are 'crabbing' with respect to your ground track (feet off) then the nose will be pointing towards the 'wind'. If you are not crabbing, turn 90 degrees and try again. If you are still not crabbing, then there is not enough wind to worry a normal landing.

[Birdy2]

Mmmmm ....... all these indicaters are true and reliable, but you should always be keepn track of wind direction, i the case of the dreded silence. if your on your way down with no noise, you dont want to be haven to be lookn round for cues as to wind direction.

anatha thing to concider is the fact that different layers of air can be go'n different directions.
if your do'n your 360 at 200', the direction the air is traveln up there can be in the opposit direction to ground level.
wen air is most likely to be 'stratified' is wen most of you blokes go for a putt around, early in the mor'n before the sun and any wind mixes it all up.
iv seen smoke from the camp fire go streight up for 20', then lean one way for anatha 20 odd feet, then turn 180 n be blown back the other, all inside 100'.

Oh yeh, forgot to mention, bout them mills. only look at the tail vain, not the fan, coz if its 'pulled out' the fan will be parralell to the wind [ and tail.]:rolleyes:;)

[Brian]

Depends a bit on wind strength as well, a wind of less than 5 knots, isnt going to cause a lot of drama if you get the direction wrong, for a low hour pilot. Also, when coming into land [if uncertain of wind direction] if you feel you're ground speed is way too high, then go around, change direction and give it another go and see how the ground speed looks. A bit of extra flying will not hurt and all experience is valuable.

Another good pointer of ground speed is a GPS, it seems most pilots have a GPS now days!!

[bones]

iv seen smoke from the camp fire go streight up for 20', then lean one way for anatha 20 odd feet, then turn 180 n be blown back the other, all inside 100'.

:rolleyes:;)

Yep that be the truth Birdy the morning at BC for eg the smoke from the fire was a VERY distinct S in it as it rose, simply amasing to see, and it would shock a lot of people.
After awhile you can tell where the wind is coming from without even thinking about it, some times i tihnk to meselr how did i know the wind was gonna do that :confused: just becomes second nature after awhile.

[add]

thanks all.had half of the info worked out.will keep the rest in memory bank.